Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
In what way is it absolute rubbish?
Its exactly what i'd understood the situation to be....
Its exactly what i'd understood the situation to be....
do i need the ICC cert to go into marinas in europe
- Thread starter oceanventure2
- Start date
Lizzie_B
Well-Known Member
If US registered boat you can be required to produce your US qualification. I believe most US states have some sort of compulsory requirement to obtain a basic boat operator's licence. The fact that having sailed across the Atlantic you have far exceeded that standard is of no interest to the average European beauraucrat.
Make sure you keep the crew listings in your log entries up to date. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
From the other side - I have found my ICC is readily accepted by US state and Coastguard staff, and once presented seems to halt all further questions. You don't have to do a course, you can just present yourself for the test. If you are thinking of going foreign you shouldn't have any problems passing it. The 'syllabus' was on the RYA website, probably still is.
Make sure you keep the crew listings in your log entries up to date. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
From the other side - I have found my ICC is readily accepted by US state and Coastguard staff, and once presented seems to halt all further questions. You don't have to do a course, you can just present yourself for the test. If you are thinking of going foreign you shouldn't have any problems passing it. The 'syllabus' was on the RYA website, probably still is.
Lizzie_B
Well-Known Member
You don't need to do a course, you can just present yourself for the examination. The syllabus used to be on the rya website, probably still is. If you're thinking of going foreign you should have no problems passing.
With regard to the actual legal position - once you're in someone else's territorial waters it is much easier to have an official looking piece of paper to present to the authorities.
This can be particularly important when dealing with officials who have the power to impound your boat and levy on the spot fines, while you are trying to convince them that they are (as is sometimes the case) wrong. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
To me it seems a false economy to not take something that is relatively cheap and simple to obtain.
With regard to the actual legal position - once you're in someone else's territorial waters it is much easier to have an official looking piece of paper to present to the authorities.
This can be particularly important when dealing with officials who have the power to impound your boat and levy on the spot fines, while you are trying to convince them that they are (as is sometimes the case) wrong. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
To me it seems a false economy to not take something that is relatively cheap and simple to obtain.
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
This is the RYA saying, in a rather convoluted way, that certain countries have reserved their position to act as they wish in respect of other countries quailfications. Rubbish? yes, because it's impenatrable, uncertain for the visitor, but convenient for the visited.
Luckily, officials in most of the visited countries realise it's rubbish and act in a common sense way to make the visitor's life easy. In the past, this was a recipe to extract a suitable bribe . . .
Luckily, officials in most of the visited countries realise it's rubbish and act in a common sense way to make the visitor's life easy. In the past, this was a recipe to extract a suitable bribe . . .
adrianm
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
To me it seems a false economy to not take something that is relatively cheap and simple to obtain.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well said. Exactly the view I took when I got mine many moons ago. Never been asked for it but why take the risk?
To me it seems a false economy to not take something that is relatively cheap and simple to obtain.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well said. Exactly the view I took when I got mine many moons ago. Never been asked for it but why take the risk?
Sea Devil
Well-Known Member
There is no legal requirement to have a ICC if you enter a foreign port from the sea under your own power - sail. The country you are visiting has no right under international law to impose it's own, local, rules on foreign vessels. There was a situation in New Zealand where they tried to impose their own 'equipment' rules on blue water cruisers and the NZ government had to back down.
There is a difference if the boat enters the foreign country towed or on a motor vehicle. It has not entered on its own 'bottom'. In this case the 'foreign' country may ask for the boat drivers qualification and the ICC is the UK one.
The same rule applies for most European inland waterways - particularly the French rivers and canals that are not designated as 'sea'. For these you need a boat driving certificate if the HP of the engine is over 6HP. You also need to have passed a written test CEVNI to demonstrate that you know the rules and understand the signs on inland waterways.
There is a difference if the boat enters the foreign country towed or on a motor vehicle. It has not entered on its own 'bottom'. In this case the 'foreign' country may ask for the boat drivers qualification and the ICC is the UK one.
The same rule applies for most European inland waterways - particularly the French rivers and canals that are not designated as 'sea'. For these you need a boat driving certificate if the HP of the engine is over 6HP. You also need to have passed a written test CEVNI to demonstrate that you know the rules and understand the signs on inland waterways.
pheran
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
ICC not required in Dutch Inland Waters, provided boat is less than 15m and not capable of >15 knts, figures are approx, can't remember exact ones
[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
Holland no prob unless you have yacht more than 15m or fast Mobo
[/ QUOTE ] I think you may be getting confused with the 15metre/20kph criteria that require a mobo(schnelboot) to be registered if used inland. I have kept my own boat in Holland for some years now and have been asked for my ICC on two occasions, although it falls below these limits. You have been warned!
ICC not required in Dutch Inland Waters, provided boat is less than 15m and not capable of >15 knts, figures are approx, can't remember exact ones
[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
Holland no prob unless you have yacht more than 15m or fast Mobo
[/ QUOTE ] I think you may be getting confused with the 15metre/20kph criteria that require a mobo(schnelboot) to be registered if used inland. I have kept my own boat in Holland for some years now and have been asked for my ICC on two occasions, although it falls below these limits. You have been warned!
webcraft
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
He then asked if I had any proof of my competence - I said the log book provided the proof, but I did have a UK yachtmaster certificate, which had no validity outside UK.
[/ QUOTE ] The RYA will issue an ICC against any RYA certificat from Day SKipper upwards for a modest fee or free if you are a membre.
So far have not been asked in Spain, Portugal, Madeira or the Canaries, but you never know - we have one each just in case.
- Nick
He then asked if I had any proof of my competence - I said the log book provided the proof, but I did have a UK yachtmaster certificate, which had no validity outside UK.
[/ QUOTE ] The RYA will issue an ICC against any RYA certificat from Day SKipper upwards for a modest fee or free if you are a membre.
So far have not been asked in Spain, Portugal, Madeira or the Canaries, but you never know - we have one each just in case.
- Nick
Lizzie_B
Well-Known Member
Agreed. But unfortunately not all local officials see it that way.
Often because their own countries have some form of compulsory licensing, they assume everyone does and become suspicious when you try and tell them it's not required in Britain.
It can sometimes take a lot of time, frustration and often money before you get high enough up the chain of command to find someone who knows and/or is prepared to uphold the international laws.
It's exactly the same as French officials asking British vessels to prove their VAT status when they actually have no jurisdiction in such matters.
Technically, Legally you may not 'need' an ICC, but it can save an awful lot of hassle in some of the quieter back waters of Europe - pretty helpful with the Florida water nazis too. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Often because their own countries have some form of compulsory licensing, they assume everyone does and become suspicious when you try and tell them it's not required in Britain.
It can sometimes take a lot of time, frustration and often money before you get high enough up the chain of command to find someone who knows and/or is prepared to uphold the international laws.
It's exactly the same as French officials asking British vessels to prove their VAT status when they actually have no jurisdiction in such matters.
Technically, Legally you may not 'need' an ICC, but it can save an awful lot of hassle in some of the quieter back waters of Europe - pretty helpful with the Florida water nazis too. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
TheBoatman
Well-Known Member
The ICC test is almost identical to the practical test for PB2. If you hold a RYA PB2 ticket or a Safety Boat ticket or a Dazed Kipper ticket you can get a ICC just by writing to the RYA and enclose proof.
You can do the test on your own boat but it is best to go to a school because the chances are they will have a mix of boats i.e power and sail which means you you won't get any endorsements.
Peter.
You can do the test on your own boat but it is best to go to a school because the chances are they will have a mix of boats i.e power and sail which means you you won't get any endorsements.
Peter.
alant
Well-Known Member
"I have kept my own boat in Holland for some years now and have been asked for my ICC on two occasions, although it falls below these limits."
Since you have actual firsthand knowledge, what is the exact situation with regard to CEVNI in Holland? Apparently one requirement is that you have to have a complete set of their regulations (in Dutch) on board. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Since you have actual firsthand knowledge, what is the exact situation with regard to CEVNI in Holland? Apparently one requirement is that you have to have a complete set of their regulations (in Dutch) on board. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
alant
Well-Known Member
"I'd like to hear if anyone else has been asked for proof of qualifications in these countries . . ."
As has been said previously on other ICC threads, most of the officialdom will be passive, unless an incident occurs. Then they can suddenly become rather interested in the detail of any qualifications etc.
As has been said previously on other ICC threads, most of the officialdom will be passive, unless an incident occurs. Then they can suddenly become rather interested in the detail of any qualifications etc.
MoodySabre
Well-Known Member
I thought the ICC test was a joke - if you can't pass it then you shouldn't think about sailing half a mile let alone abroad. It says in the blurb that you should do it in a boat that you are familiar with. There was only one club members boat in the water as it was winter, so instead of a Snapdragon we used a 36' Prout catamaran which was bigger than my lounge! Everyone passed even though one person did an accidental jibe. Nonsense.
Swagman
Well-Known Member
Hi Paul,
Someone else has already given the right answer. If you do need qualifications in your home country - you'll need them in the EU. If you don't (EKA the UK) then you don't need them elsewhere.
I've never had an issue with no ICC in France, Belgium, Portugual, Spain, Italy, Greece etc...........I simply say I don't have one!
Cheers
JOHN
Someone else has already given the right answer. If you do need qualifications in your home country - you'll need them in the EU. If you don't (EKA the UK) then you don't need them elsewhere.
I've never had an issue with no ICC in France, Belgium, Portugual, Spain, Italy, Greece etc...........I simply say I don't have one!
Cheers
JOHN
Lizzie_B
Well-Known Member
I've been asked three times in the USA (twice by CoastGuard, once by Florida Water Nazi). Always same documents requested -registration document and 'operator's licence' which is what I use the ICC for.
One UK registered boat I was crewing on was asked in Corunna and my cousin has been asked in Palma /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
One UK registered boat I was crewing on was asked in Corunna and my cousin has been asked in Palma /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
pheran
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Since you have actual firsthand knowledge, what is the exact situation with regard to CEVNI in Holland? Apparently one requirement is that you have to have a complete set of their regulations (in Dutch) on board
[/ QUOTE ] As I understand it, an ICC with CEVNI endorsement is required for all the inland waterways of Holland. Although there are people on this forum that deride the ICC, you can understand the Dutch (and others abroad) looking for a confirmation of at least basic knowledge and ability seeing that you are going to get involved with some serious commercial traffic on some very restricted waterways. As an example, failing to understand what 'blue boarding' involved could lead to a nasty accident.
Foreign flagged boats must be registered in their country of origin. For UK boats, Part 3 will do but the SSR number must be displayed on both sides of the boat in letters at least six inches high.
And yes, you are required to carry Volume One of the Wateralmanak which contains all the regulations although it is all in Dutch and there is no English version available. Volume 2 gives information about marinas, town facilities, bridge opening times, telephone numbers, VHF channels etc and is optional. Although this is also all in Dutch, it is surprising how quickly you can find your way around it. We find it very useful.
Since you have actual firsthand knowledge, what is the exact situation with regard to CEVNI in Holland? Apparently one requirement is that you have to have a complete set of their regulations (in Dutch) on board
[/ QUOTE ] As I understand it, an ICC with CEVNI endorsement is required for all the inland waterways of Holland. Although there are people on this forum that deride the ICC, you can understand the Dutch (and others abroad) looking for a confirmation of at least basic knowledge and ability seeing that you are going to get involved with some serious commercial traffic on some very restricted waterways. As an example, failing to understand what 'blue boarding' involved could lead to a nasty accident.
Foreign flagged boats must be registered in their country of origin. For UK boats, Part 3 will do but the SSR number must be displayed on both sides of the boat in letters at least six inches high.
And yes, you are required to carry Volume One of the Wateralmanak which contains all the regulations although it is all in Dutch and there is no English version available. Volume 2 gives information about marinas, town facilities, bridge opening times, telephone numbers, VHF channels etc and is optional. Although this is also all in Dutch, it is surprising how quickly you can find your way around it. We find it very useful.
chrisc
Well-Known Member
I have been to harbours and marinas in most EU countries and have never been asked for my sailing qualifications; Vat forms ,insurance etc. but never qualifications.
Lizzie_B
Well-Known Member
And yet legally,if britished registered, other EU countries have no jurisdiction in matters of VAT so have no reason to ask for VAT documentation. Which is the point about local officials not always knowing what the law is regarding your vessel. Hence the wisdom of carrying a simply obtained piece of paper like the ICC, just in case!!!!
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
"I'd like to hear if anyone else has been asked for proof of qualifications in these countries . . ."
As has been said previously on other ICC threads, most of the officialdom will be passive, unless an incident occurs. Then they can suddenly become rather interested in the detail of any qualifications etc.
[/ QUOTE ]
You miss the point of my question. Rather than listening to hearsay, I'm looking for any direct evidence that (in particular) European countries ask for qualifications.
It is my belief that this is very rare indeed, and if you don't produce a certificate, no-one does anything about it anyway. But I want to test this belief through the experiences (not the beliefs) of those on this forum.
When you say "They can suddenly become interested . . . etc etc" - is this the result of your direct experience? Or is it hearsay?
I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't obtain ICCs. Up to individuals. I'm just trying to test the real need for them.
"I'd like to hear if anyone else has been asked for proof of qualifications in these countries . . ."
As has been said previously on other ICC threads, most of the officialdom will be passive, unless an incident occurs. Then they can suddenly become rather interested in the detail of any qualifications etc.
[/ QUOTE ]
You miss the point of my question. Rather than listening to hearsay, I'm looking for any direct evidence that (in particular) European countries ask for qualifications.
It is my belief that this is very rare indeed, and if you don't produce a certificate, no-one does anything about it anyway. But I want to test this belief through the experiences (not the beliefs) of those on this forum.
When you say "They can suddenly become interested . . . etc etc" - is this the result of your direct experience? Or is it hearsay?
I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't obtain ICCs. Up to individuals. I'm just trying to test the real need for them.
rivalranger
Well-Known Member
The Cruising Associations 'An introduction to cruising in The Netherlands' says that
'Skippers of vessels over 15m or capable of speeds greater than 20kph (11kn) are required to have a certificate of competence recognised by the Dutch authorities. These include full RYA Yachtmaster (inlcuding practical), coastal skipper, sports boat level 2 and ICC with CEVNI'
Brian Navin's 'Cruising guide to the Netherlands' say the same thing.
We had our documentation checked at IJmuiden, however our 'Authorities' documentation pack includes lots of RYA certs and ICC (no CEVNI though). So I can not really say if the authorities actually wanted a ICC or not. The same goes for the checks we had at the Kiel Canal.
'Skippers of vessels over 15m or capable of speeds greater than 20kph (11kn) are required to have a certificate of competence recognised by the Dutch authorities. These include full RYA Yachtmaster (inlcuding practical), coastal skipper, sports boat level 2 and ICC with CEVNI'
Brian Navin's 'Cruising guide to the Netherlands' say the same thing.
We had our documentation checked at IJmuiden, however our 'Authorities' documentation pack includes lots of RYA certs and ICC (no CEVNI though). So I can not really say if the authorities actually wanted a ICC or not. The same goes for the checks we had at the Kiel Canal.