Do I need a bigger boat?

[ST840]

@Martxer , my wife used to be the same, she got so bad that she gave up boating for 4 years. Whilst I carried on with my son. In the end I swapped the boat (MF755) for a semi displacement boat. This has opened her up to boating again in the respect that now I can't get her off the bloody thing! Our boat is only 8.6m so same as yours, but it sits in the water more than the MF, so gives a more stable ride. I always turn into a wake from the larger vessels rather than let them hit us side on. No slamming, no rolling and a happy wife. She now is even trying the helm.

We are based in Mercury yacht harbour, would happily take you and your wife out if you need a demo of difference of ride??

 

[Portofino]

Snap ! She didn’t like being rocked about and the thing slamming at speed .
Or having to drop off the plane so it rocks n rolls uncomfortably……which is where you are if I understand your initial post correctly.
So I asked brokers in the SoF which boat gives the smoothest , better confidence inspiring ride in a chop .
The Sunseeker guys , the Riva ( Ferretti Gp ) , Princess and Fairline guys all said it’s to do with the deadrise the V .
So I started to unintentionally baffle sales folk at boat shows with this Q “ excuse me do you know the deadrise ? “

Just got a blank look back or waffle like “ want to see the size of the fridge “ .” Would you like to go in the mid cabin ? “

PYB of this Parish put me on to Magnums , Bertram’s , and Itama .

The rest as they say is history .

It worked btw she’s happy and confident with its motion / ride etc .

You do see at shows on the static land displays smaller boats and the wide range of dead rises .
Dead rise is universal handling thing , not just a big boat thing .

So you don’t need a big boat per see just a different boat , one with a deep V .

 

[Bouba]

The answer always is yes, you need a bigger boat...how to broach the subject to the wife is more tricky...so how about....dear, if we had a bigger boat we would have lots of room for a stabilizer...you know how you love the boat when it is not rocking...

 

[TheCoach]

I can only echo a few of the comments above especially ST840 who has trod a very similar path. Don't need to go crazy on size but a semi displacement or planning hull that is a bit heavier and more solid might help a lot. We looked at a lot of stuff and ended up with an Antares 9.80, not a lot bigger than yours in LOA but maybe 2 tonnes heavier and feels a lot more solid (we looked at some MF's when we were on the buying journey.

I'm fortunate (?) that I'm the one who gets travel sick but we still like to be sensible/comfortable in our approach. The Antares is pretty solid, can ride a bit of chop but if we don't like the look of something we just choose a different destination.

We are out of Hythe and a few times have got down to Calshot and decided its too lumpy so we turn around and pootle up the Hamble instead. Just nice to be on the water. As mentioned earlier from where you are come up to Itchen/Hythe/Marchwood, some nice cruising in more sheltered waters.

We have just come back from a great couple of weeks touring around the Solent and really like Chichester harbour. If you leave Hamble and stick closer to the shore ( taking notice of depths of course) you will get out of the way of the bigger boats and wakes that mainly inhabit the main channel. then as said, can take the North channel and again stay to the shore side all the way to Portsmouth and it will keep you out of the way of the hooligans

From Portsmouth you can get through the submarine barrier and all the way over to Chichester without going near the main channel and once in Chichester you are in a very quite 8knot area to explore/moor/anchor (just check out the bar crossing and pick your timing)

All very doable in your MF and probably within an hours ride from Hamble at cruising speed.

The advantage of the bigger boat is you have the choice to do it at displacement as well - went all the way there and most of the way back at 7-8kn in the Antares and it was great fun.

HTH

TC

 

[Portofino]

The answer always is yes, you need a bigger boat...how to broach the subject to the wife is more tricky...so how about....dear, if we had a bigger boat we would have lots of room for a stabilizer...you know how you love the boat when it is not rocking...

Not really .
Its down to the hull design nothing else .
I know of a guy who was a serial Sunseeker owner in the SoF .Patriotic kinda guy blah blah blah .
His last S/ Sker was a Pred 108 .The wife started to get sea sick , disliked its motion .Previous 82 and 72 , Porto 53 were fine .
All new boats .Nothing to do with stabilisers happened with the gyros on or off .
No need to put them on in mild seas any how .

So they test drove a Pershing 108 .Had a berth that size .
Well you guessed it it felt better she was fine .So with a heavy heart they listed the Pred 108 and bought a Pershing instead .

Exactly the same predicament as everyone else, she stopped boating on one occasion within a 1 hr out on the way to Corsica they were forced to return etc etc . Different price point and scale granted ,but the wife bit is identical.

So either swap wife , go by yourself ( + crew + guests ) or change boat . The very same dilemma that we are discussing on here .

The Pred 82 rode better than the 108 in the context of this thread …..keeping the wife in the boating loop .
Arguably size did not matter in this case ………the boat chaps .

It’s difficult I know but I always advocate try before you buy .Get yourself at a wet boat show , get yourself helming the thing in the sea states you anticipate using it .

Failing that read this book .

You will know what to look for and where on the hull and what to avoid too, in terms of ride , wave bashing , comfort .

I did it the other way round .Took a leap of faith listening to brokers and PYB on here .
Never heard of dead rise until after I bought the current boat .Just curious why it performed as good as it does and others were slowing down in big seas and we weren’t and we were going through bigger boats wakes hardly noticing .

Once in a big sea I had a 20 M Princess try and follow in our 14 M wake .He couldn’t and slowed down to D speed behind us .
Another time at the Monaco GP returning it cut up pretty bad .Again the bigger Sunseekers ( local brokers lending boats out ) tried to follow us back in our wake .
The guests on the S Sker we’re leaning over the side , or popping there heads through the Pred 60 s open HT and heaving up over the sides .
Mean while we ( wife inc ) were fine just slicing waves in half at 26 knots having fun all the way back to La Napoule.

There two bigger boats .One had to drop off the other get sick washed down it’s side .Take your pick .

S / Skr dealer later thanked me for not running away , allowing him to follow in our wake .His thinking was to get it over with hence not drop off the plane .

 

[Martxer]

As we were heading out it got a bit lumpy at calshot and the missus wasn’t comfortable so I turned round and headed back, as we got closer to the hamble I had a sailboat to starboard heading in and a 20’ ish fishing boat heading out to port .
in the distance to port a 50’ish fly heading out decided to squeeze between me and the fishing boat, that sent her over the edge. I felt sorry for the small boat as we were ok.
I think earlier starts when it’s quieter and I will look into giving the main channel a miss.
She suggested a bigger boat

 

[DavidJ]

Where we are in Spain there is (usually) a daily cycle which starts at f2 and by midday it’s f4 then progressively settles down again.
Quite uncomfortable in our S23 and regularly chose not to go out but upgraded to an S37 and the difference (apart from the ease of twin engine handling) was dramatic.
Answer to your question:
Yes

 

[Martxer]

Snap ! She didn’t like being rocked about and the thing slamming at speed .
Or having to drop off the plane so it rocks n rolls uncomfortably……which is where you are if I understand your initial post correctly.
So I asked brokers in the SoF which boat gives the smoothest , better confidence inspiring ride in a chop .
The Sunseeker guys , the Riva ( Ferretti Gp ) , Princess and Fairline guys all said it’s to do with the deadrise the V .
So I started to unintentionally baffle sales folk at boat shows with this Q “ excuse me do you know the deadrise ? “

Just got a blank look back or waffle like “ want to see the size of the fridge “ .” Would you like to go in the mid cabin ? “

PYB of this Parish put me on to Magnums , Bertram’s , and Itama .

The rest as they say is history .

It worked btw she’s happy and confident with its motion / ride etc .

You do see at shows on the static land displays smaller boats and the wide range of dead rises .
Dead rise is universal handling thing , not just a big boat thing .

So you don’t need a big boat per see just a different boat , one with a deep V .

When I chose the Mf it came down to maximum accommodation I could get as we use the boat for long weekends being 250 miles from the boat. If I need a deep v then I guess I need a bigger boat just to get the same accommodation ?
I am happy with the boat and how it performs but you do need to be on the throttles when it’s lumpy whereas the bigger boats seem to Plough on through easier, I am guessing weight plays a roll too .

 

[Martxer]

It seems to be the waves that are unnerving her so a bigger boat would make the waves look smaller, now I am using man maths ?

 

[ST840]

It seems to be the waves that are unnerving her so a bigger boat would make the waves look smaller, now I am using man maths ?

A bigger boat still rocks and bobs about. It's more to do with hull design, not bigger is better.
Also, Calshot is always a bit choppy even in good conditions, this is due to the flow of 3 bits of water meeting at a point and causing swell. Just drive the boat to the conditions until past.

 

[Martxer]

A bigger boat still rocks and bobs about. It's more to do with hull design, not bigger is better.
Also, Calshot is always a bit choppy even in good conditions, this is due to the flow of 3 bits of water meeting at a point and causing swell. Just drive the boat to the conditions until past.

I have explained that It’s always messy round Calshot but once past everything levels out. Heading out on a Sunday very warm weekend at probably a busy time of day was a school boy error.
Lesson learned.

 

[Portofino]

When I chose the Mf it came down to maximum accommodation I could get as we use the boat for long weekends being 250 miles from the boat. If I need a deep v then I guess I need a bigger boat just to get the same accommodation ?
I am happy with the boat and how it performs but you do need to be on the throttles when it’s lumpy whereas the bigger boats seem to Plough on through easier, I am guessing weight plays a roll too .

Q1 - not necessarily deeper V means more Hp .So more weight as a factor of the engine sizing . Not less accommodation.
As you deepen the V you loose lift , low speed lift so need more speed , hence more Hp .You also increase drag the surface area .
Low deadrise boats are sucker punches for builders because they plane at lower speeds and the power pack s can be smaller and thus cheaper to build = more profitable.

Weight - helps but its secondary. Primary search delta is dead rise it trumps all else .
The maths for vertical acceleration ( VA ) or lack of it had iirc a sq or cube of the dead rise in there .
The ride quality you feel or your wife is the vertical acceleration, you need to reduce that .Not the vertical distance in absolute terms , the wave hight or troughs but the speed or vertical acceleration it attains while going through the sea .
So because of the factor sq d or cubed a small change in deadrise has a dramatic effect lowering the V acceleration.

You might not think 15 to 18 is hardly effective but it is hugely in comparing ride quality in waves / wakes etc
A true deep V in marine architecture is over 20 degrees at the deadrise .
10to 20 are really medium not deep in the true definition.

Thats why you see ribs slicing through when you are out in waves .It’s certainly not the size , not really the weight is it ? Its the deadrise. A lot are 20-.25 They cope ie the passengers are happy because of the reduced to acceptable human levels of the VA


Then there’s where the weight is . The centre of gravity and centre of lift need to be considered together.
they ideally needs to be as close as poss together and the CoG as low as possible.
A OB rib …..where are the 6/8 folks sitting up front or in the middle on saddles thus as a relative % of the weight the crew position moves the CoG forward to near the centre of lift .When you compare the 6-8 Pax to the weight of the OBs .


So any outdrive rear engined say OB is never gonna ride as well as a central engined ( usually shaft ) boat .
A fly bridge is never gonna be better than the eq identical sports cruiser .Eg a Manhattan 48 / 50 and Carmarque 50 sharing the same hull mould .The CoG in the FB is higher or further away from the CoL then the Sports cruiser .
So what’s the big deal with getting the CoL and CoG as close as poss ?
The further apart they are the more pitching and porpoiseing the thing does.Toss that adverse motion into a low deadrise excessive VA =Every one’s sick ,or those of a delicate predisposition for nausea start to notice it .

Its not luck or guess work it’s a calculated science .That book lays it all out .

As I said when you start your next boat search look where possible at the deadrise .It’s the only quantifiable thing you can compare .
Mines 23 BTW but that’s exceptional only very few mobos are true deep V s Magnums , some Bertram’s , and few other rare Italians like Otam , Abatte , AB , .All off shore race boat derived .
In the small boat world you have Fountain , Donzi , and a few others .But you say you need accommodation as well .

Thats the problem today sticking the engine room in the centre the CoG + CoL coinciding splits and devastates the accommodation.Think mid engined cars and road holding .Theres a reason the best handling put the engine in the middle .
They are trying to coincide the Cog to the centre , the turning moment point between both axils .So all 4 tyres can equally contribute to keeping it planted on the tarmac .

I concede the low deadrise floating apartments will always out sell in todays social media world staycation world .

Just saying a unhappy boating wife isn’t inevitable .

 

[ChromeDome]

Sounds ideal to a male boater that the female controller want a bigger boat.

First: Decide on your budget!

No boat is so big weather is no issue. Even big tankers, war ships and cruise ships roll but boats are far more capable than the crew:

As suggested by others a semi displacement boat with a weight to push through rather than attempting to skid on top of waves might be better.

Next: Get out there in boats that potentially would meet the combined requirements. Plenty of forum mates would welcome you and the admiral on a visit and maybe a trip out.

But first thing first: Budget!

 

[Martxer]

Q1 - not necessarily deeper V means more Hp .So more weight as a factor of the engine sizing . Not less accommodation.
As you deepen the V you loose lift , low speed lift so need more speed , hence more Hp .You also increase drag the surface area .
Low deadrise boats are sucker punches for builders because they plane at lower speeds and the power pack s can be smaller and thus cheaper to build = more profitable.

Weight - helps but its secondary. Primary search delta is dead rise it trumps all else .
The maths for vertical acceleration ( VA ) or lack of it had iirc a sq or cube of the dead rise in there .
The ride quality you feel or your wife is the vertical acceleration, you need to reduce that .Not the vertical distance in absolute terms , the wave hight or troughs but the speed or vertical acceleration it attains while going through the sea .
So because of the factor sq d or cubed a small change in deadrise has a dramatic effect lowering the V acceleration.

You might not think 15 to 18 is hardly effective but it is hugely in comparing ride quality in waves / wakes etc
A true deep V in marine architecture is over 20 degrees at the deadrise .
10to 20 are really medium not deep in the true definition.

Thats why you see ribs slicing through when you are out in waves .It’s certainly not the size , not really the weight is it ? Its the deadrise. A lot are 20-.25 They cope ie the passengers are happy because of the reduced to acceptable human levels of the VA


Then there’s where the weight is . The centre of gravity and centre of lift need to be considered together.
they ideally needs to be as close as poss together and the CoG as low as possible.
A OB rib …..where are the 6/8 folks sitting up front or in the middle on saddles thus as a relative % of the weight the crew position moves the CoG forward to near the centre of lift .When you compare the 6-8 Pax to the weight of the OBs .


So any outdrive rear engined say OB is never gonna ride as well as a central engined ( usually shaft ) boat .
A fly bridge is never gonna be better than the eq identical sports cruiser .Eg a Manhattan 48 / 50 and Carmarque 50 sharing the same hull mould .The CoG in the FB is higher or further away from the CoL then the Sports cruiser .
So what’s the big deal with getting the CoL and CoG as close as poss ?
The further apart they are the more pitching and porpoiseing the thing does.Toss that adverse motion into a low deadrise excessive VA =Every one’s sick ,or those of a delicate predisposition for nausea start to notice it .

Its not luck or guess work it’s a calculated science .That book lays it all out .

As I said when you start your next boat search look where possible at the deadrise .It’s the only quantifiable thing you can compare .
Mines 23 BTW but that’s exceptional only very few mobos are true deep V s Magnums , some Bertram’s , and few other rare Italians like Otam , Abatte , AB , .All off shore race boat derived .
In the small boat world you have Fountain , Donzi , and a few others .But you say you need accommodation as well .

Thats the problem today sticking the engine room in the centre the CoG + CoL coinciding splits and devastates the accommodation.Think mid engined cars and road holding .Theres a reason the best handling put the engine in the middle .
They are trying to coincide the Cog to the centre , the turning moment point between both axils .So all 4 tyres can equally contribute to keeping it planted on the tarmac .

I concede the low deadrise floating apartments will always out sell in todays social media world staycation world .

Just saying a unhappy boating wife isn’t inevitable .

So the sensible option is to buy a crash pad close to the boat and buy a smaller boat with deep v?

 

[Portofino]

So the sensible option is to buy a crash pad close to the boat and buy a smaller boat with deep v?

If that’s ( buying bricks n mortar ) an option then yes .
On many levels btw .

 

[adey]

Seakeeper 1 - Seakeeper

 

[Daydream believer]

Do what I have done- it is cheaper & by far & less stressful
Buy her a set of golf clubs & pay for her golf club membership every year.
She is rarely at home & I get to go sailing without the hassle of a miserable missus. ?

 

[jrudge]

If you don’t like rolling the the only real solution is stabilisation. Wake at sad is simply a fact of life. The other boat had a destination and is navigating around the many boats in the Solent. I would not take it personally. I have only been on the Solent a few times and it is unpleasantly crowded. Try Mallorca.