Do ex dinghy sailors make good cruising yachtsmen?

[KevinV]

I come from mucking about in dinghies, but not racing. I've sailed a cruising yacht with a dinghy racer and he was a pain - far too "busy" for long passages, he just couldn't get his head round choosing the best average.
I enjoyed the transition, and think that making mistakes with impunity in dinghies is a good thing. Feel for what the boat, water, wind and sails are doing remains - I can feel a sail luffing when making the tea - but I couldn't tell you exactly what it is that I'm feeling.

 

[flaming]

I think racing as a skill development is overrated. After all 99.99% of racers fail to win their race, ergo, they are not good at what they do.

I thought I was quite a good sailor before I started racing seriously. After all at that point I had been sailing my entire life, held a Yachtmaster at 21, had crossed the channel and North sea countless times etc, had done most of the RYA dinghy courses as a kid.

Then I started racing properly and learned exactly how little I really knew about sailing. When I did my YM the single most challenging bit was the MOB under sail. Returning exactly to the right place and stopping the boat alongside the casualty. Doing that in 25 knots of wind was, at that point, the toughest sailing task I'd ever done.
Just a few years later, having spent that time learning how to drive a race boat, how to hold it in position on the start, how the boat accelerates when you sheet in, how much it goes sideways as you accelerate, how you can feel when the rudder is about to stall etc... And practice MOBs in strong breezes suddenly became a lot easier.
Ditto picking up a mooring under sail etc.

And the thing about racing is that a lot of the time you're out there sailing when if you were cruising you'd have looked at the forecast and done something else for the weekend. You become accustomed to sailing in both very strong and very light winds. And not only do you do that a lot more, but you have an observable metric to see if you're doing it well, and better sailors in close company to learn from. By contrast through a lot of my earlier cruising there was nobody else around to watch, I now know we were making mistakes in boat handling and sail trim etc, especially in fresher conditions, but I had no way of knowing that they even were mistakes. There's only so much you can learn from diagrams in books etc....

And those heavy air racing skills, they really translate. Especially into being able to calm the boat down, to depower in a way that isn't just letting things flap. To make better progress when conditions aren't great. All of which massively improves life on board for the whole crew.
Last time I was out cruising with my wife, twin 6 year olds and 76 year old mother it was on the windy side. Mid 20s and we needed to go upwind to get to Granny's hotel booking. A good proportion of the cruising boats we passed looked really uncomfortable, on their ear, half rolled jibs with the top 1/3 of it just flapping, and the whole thing quite baggy. Nothing like enough tension in the main halyard or reefing line, so that the main was baggy too. Lot of noisy flapping, not a lot of forward drive, helm looking like they're wrestling a greased python, boat doesn't want to go in a straight line. By contrast with flat sails, no noisy flapping, trimmed with enough twist to make life easier for the helm my 6 year olds were more than capable of driving the boat (an were absolutely loving doing so) and we were much faster, even than the boat that was 10 foot larger and motoring directly into the wind.

Obviously those sailing skills are not the be all and end all of cruising. As others have said, there is a lot more to being a successful cruising skipper, absolute top of that list I will put "learning to plan your itinerary to suit your crew's experience and enthusiasm level, not necessarily your own." But unquestionably I am a much, much better sailor for having done the racing that I have done, and having those skills made that day fun rather than the endurance test that the crews we sailed past had. It also widens the window in which you can give your inexperienced crew a nice day out.

The single biggest thing that I find changed, that really impacts cruising sailing, is how you view berthing. For a cruising sailor the 1st 10 and last 10 yards of any trip, especially in a stiff breeze, are often the most stressful. When you've been out racing, flying kites in a little bit too much breeze, tacking within a boatlength of other boats, starting on a crowded start line etc... The idea that berthing is somehow stressful is just not a thing. And there's no doubt at all that good racing helms, and good dinghy helms, have a much better understanding than the average cruising skipper of how the rudder and keel are working in the water as you approach your berth, and what the wind is going to do to you when you slow down past the point where they have grip on the water. And they won't even really be thinking about it, they'll just know.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Seems a bit unfair as your boat is more dingy than yacht

It’s a pursuit race. They make us start 20 mins after the Contessa 28s. Nearly an hour after the first gaffer. It’s good fun, sometimes we catch them, sometimes not. But a nice long leg against the tide much improves our chances.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I thought I was quite a good sailor before I started racing seriously. After all at that point I had been sailing my entire life, held a Yachtmaster at 21, had crossed the channel and North sea countless times etc, had done most of the RYA dinghy courses as a kid.

Then I started racing properly and learned exactly how little I really knew about sailing. When I did my YM the single most challenging bit was the MOB under sail. Returning exactly to the right place and stopping the boat alongside the casualty. Doing that in 25 knots of wind was, at that point, the toughest sailing task I'd ever done.
Just a few years later, having spent that time learning how to drive a race boat, how to hold it in position on the start, how the boat accelerates when you sheet in, how much it goes sideways as you accelerate, how you can feel when the rudder is about to stall etc... And practice MOBs in strong breezes suddenly became a lot easier.
Ditto picking up a mooring under sail etc.

And the thing about racing is that a lot of the time you're out there sailing when if you were cruising you'd have looked at the forecast and done something else for the weekend. You become accustomed to sailing in both very strong and very light winds. And not only do you do that a lot more, but you have an observable metric to see if you're doing it well, and better sailors in close company to learn from. By contrast through a lot of my earlier cruising there was nobody else around to watch, I now know we were making mistakes in boat handling and sail trim etc, especially in fresher conditions, but I had no way of knowing that they even were mistakes. There's only so much you can learn from diagrams in books etc....

And those heavy air racing skills, they really translate. Especially into being able to calm the boat down, to depower in a way that isn't just letting things flap. To make better progress when conditions aren't great. All of which massively improves life on board for the whole crew.
Last time I was out cruising with my wife, twin 6 year olds and 76 year old mother it was on the windy side. Mid 20s and we needed to go upwind to get to Granny's hotel booking. A good proportion of the cruising boats we passed looked really uncomfortable, on their ear, half rolled jibs with the top 1/3 of it just flapping, and the whole thing quite baggy. Nothing like enough tension in the main halyard or reefing line, so that the main was baggy too. Lot of noisy flapping, not a lot of forward drive, helm looking like they're wrestling a greased python, boat doesn't want to go in a straight line. By contrast with flat sails, no noisy flapping, trimmed with enough twist to make life easier for the helm my 6 year olds were more than capable of driving the boat (an were absolutely loving doing so) and we were much faster, even than the boat that was 10 foot larger and motoring directly into the wind.

Obviously those sailing skills are not the be all and end all of cruising. As others have said, there is a lot more to being a successful cruising skipper, absolute top of that list I will put "learning to plan your itinerary to suit your crew's experience and enthusiasm level, not necessarily your own." But unquestionably I am a much, much better sailor for having done the racing that I have done, and having those skills made that day fun rather than the endurance test that the crews we sailed past had. It also widens the window in which you can give your inexperienced crew a nice day out.

The single biggest thing that I find changed, that really impacts cruising sailing, is how you view berthing. For a cruising sailor the 1st 10 and last 10 yards of any trip, especially in a stiff breeze, are often the most stressful. When you've been out racing, flying kites in a little bit too much breeze, tacking within a boatlength of other boats, starting on a crowded start line etc... The idea that berthing is somehow stressful is just not a thing. And there's no doubt at all that good racing helms, and good dinghy helms, have a much better understanding than the average cruising skipper of how the rudder and keel are working in the water as you approach your berth, and what the wind is going to do to you when you slow down past the point where they have grip on the water. And they won't even really be thinking about it, they'll just know.

All of this. If I wasn’t decorating the bedroom I’d have wanted to say much the same. Racers tend to have different taste in boats to pure cruisers too. Ones that lend themselves much better to putting some proper effort in under sail, and reward you better for doing so.

 

[lustyd]

This must be another reason we fly past every cruising yacht we meet. Any dinghy sailor who can simply remain right side up can cane the arse out of an auto helm. They have their uses, but making good progress to windward isn't one of them.

For cruising though, nobody in their right mind is helming manually for two days. Cruising isn’t about speed and it’s not always about sailing.
We recently motored to France on a windless day in a windless week. We’ve been enjoying France since. For us, cruising isn’t about pragmatic choices to get about and see the world.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

For cruising though, nobody in their right mind is helming manually for two days. Cruising isn’t about speed and it’s not always about sailing.
We recently motored to France on a windless day in a windless week. We’ve been enjoying France since. For us, cruising isn’t about pragmatic choices to get about and see the world.

We go cruising to enjoy the exhilaration of sailing, and the sense of achievement of using the wind to get somewhere. Absolutely no interest at all in motoring across the channel, a complete anathema to our thinking.

 

[ylop]

For cruising though, nobody in their right mind is helming manually for two days. Cruising isn’t about speed and it’s not always about sailing.
We recently motored to France on a windless day in a windless week. We’ve been enjoying France since. For us, cruising isn’t about pragmatic choices to get about and see the world.

I think just as some people here are have leapt to conclusions about what “dinghy sailing” is (it’s not all racing), you’ve leapt to conclusions about what “cruising” is. My boat managed the first 20 yrs of its life without an autopilot and as far as I can tell was happily cruised. We probably use it <25% of the time when underway!

 

[lustyd]

Perhaps I have. I think of cruising as going places by boat. That’s certainly different in my mind than going for a sail or racing and involves staying aboard while exploring.
I do also contrast this with “boating” which would be like cruising but entirely in home waters and visiting local ports.
Clearly I am overthinking

 

[jamie N]

I feel as if I'm in the hinterland here. I used to race (lots) and now cruise a GK24.
I do believe that 2 cruising boats that are (seemingly) headed in roughly a slightly similar direction, are racing, until proven otherwise.

 

[flaming]

I feel as if I'm in the hinterland here. I used to race (lots) and now cruise a GK24.
I do believe that 2 cruising boats that are (seemingly) headed in roughly a slightly similar direction, are racing, until proven otherwise.

You're always racing any boat going in the same direction. Until they've passed you, then you're just out for a nice sail and don't care....

 

[Egret]

Cruising is for when you've had enough of racing around the same triangle each week and want to venture further afield - maybe taking some non sailing friends.

 

[Laser310]

I'm with Flaming on this

I raced dinghies for years.., and also various keel boats

You don't know what you don't know...

Can you be a good cruising sailor without ever having sailed dinghies? Yes, absolutely.

But sailing and racing small boats is the best way to develop a good feel for when a boat is "happy"; good sail trim, right rig tune, the right weight distribution, the right amount of heel... etc.

Does any of that make a difference? Yes, actually.., especially when al of those things are considered together.

who wouldn't want a few more degrees of point, or 1/2kt better boat speed?

Dinghy skills might be more important in light winds than strong wind - getting better performance in lighter winds.., or even being able to sail when someone without those skills thinks it's not windy enough to try, and thus has the motor on.

So, dinghy skills translate well to cruising..., but obviously they are not sufficient; there is a lot to learn, and as a racing sailor, I have the greatest respect for cruisers who have been out there doing it, learning from, often difficult, experience how to skillfully do the myriad of tasks required to cruise successfully. I have learned a lot from them.

 

[14K478]

On the basis of personal experience, expert dinghy cruisers convert to heavy gaff cutter crew in less than a week at sea.

See post 25 in the St Kilda thread.

 

[lustyd]

who wouldn't want a few more degrees of point, or 1/2kt better boat speed?

As a cruising sailor I’d ask at what cost? A few more degrees, but can the crew still sleep? 1/2kt faster but can they still cook?

We don’t push the boat or the crew, it’s tiring enough just being out there for a day or two!

 

[finestgreen]

As a cruising sailor I’d ask at what cost? A few more degrees, but can the crew still sleep? 1/2kt faster but can they still cook?

We don’t push the boat or the crew, it’s tiring enough just being out there for a day or two!

A "good" yachtsman would have the range of skills to make that decision on the circumstances though

 

[14K478]

A "good" yachtsman would have the range of skills to make that decision on the circumstances though

I sailed with a couple of people from an earlier age of messing about in boats (their years of active sailing were 1919-1983 and 1951-1978) and they shared two notable characteristics:

1. When you are at sea, make yourself, and particularly the crew, comfortable, and keep the boat tidy, on deck and below. Set watches. Keep the saloon clean and tidy. Keep the heads clean. Get the off watch people out of the cockpit and into their pits. Do the washing up. Put things away.

2. Don’t let anyone get tired, or cold. Short watches, no hanging around in the cockpit. No hanging around in wet clothes.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I thought I was quite a good sailor before I started racing seriously. After all at that point I had been sailing my entire life, held a Yachtmaster at 21, had crossed the channel and North sea countless times etc, had done most of the RYA dinghy courses as a kid.

Then I started racing properly and learned exactly how little I really knew about sailing. ...

I received my Yachtmaster when I was 20, in 1985, done most of the RYA dinghy courses in the early 80's and have skippered across the Atlantic, 1st mate Round Britain and various other long distance sailing, Norway, France and Netherlands from the WCoS. At school I raced dinghies moderately successfully in Mirror's, 420's and GP14's. Later, I crewed on various boats in races: GK29, Sigma 33, Contessa 34 and a few others and again, I was moderately successful as crew, relief helm, main trimmer, genny trimmer and foredeck. I was less successful as a skipper. To be frank, I found racing a chore, a bore, going where others were telling me to go and when to go.

I have learnt more on the water about boat handling when cruising, than I ever did racing, if only because of the time I have spent sailing. All of the skills that you mention where developed or honed when racing I have developed when cruising. I agree that practise is the key, whether that be racing or cruising, but I disagree that racing has any advantage over cruising. I don't cruise in fair-weather, I cruise around to sail my boat.

I had a hiatus from sailing for about 10 years except a couple of charters in that time. When I returned, confidence was low, and boat handling under power in a marina was stressful in winds. At sea though, sailing was still easy and comfortable. I actually went on a boat handling under power course to get back into the groove which was excellent.

I don't doubt that for a minute that racing is not a skill developer, just that it is not needed. Skills can be developed by anyone, at any time, if they are open to learning. I can usually be found sailing, light winds, onto and off my anchor, mooring, and practising MOB from time to time on passage, it's how I keep my skills up. I was also fortunate that my jobs have revolved around shifts away from home, with equal time at rest back home, which gave me time on the water. I appreciate that others a more standard schedule might have less exposure than I had. However, I also have seen people who just get it, and can sail very well, and others with massive of experience that did not. But these people are exceptions.

Fill your boots racing, and good luck on the course.

 

[Mark-1]

.

 

[14K478]

.

The years of active sailing of my late father and of HW Tilman. I have re-phrased my post to try to make it clearer.

 

[Mark-1]

The years of active sailing of my late father and of HW Tilman. I have re-phrased my post to try to make it clearer.

Ahhh, I thought one would be Tillman but the dates didn't fit (born before 1900). Then I thought it was a cheeky question and deleted it! Thanks!