Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
I haven't had smallpox, but that doesn't stop me recommending that people avoid it ...
(For the record, I have nothing against Bavarias. They are not at all my taste, but so what?)
Do Bavaria exceed CE Cat A?
- Thread starter haydude
- Start date
I haven't had smallpox, but that doesn't stop me recommending that people avoid it ...
(For the record, I have nothing against Bavarias. They are not at all my taste, but so what?)
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
But also the wrong badge to get snobby about. Mondeo owners don't seem to be nearly as sensitive as Bavaria owners, whose predictably volcanic reactions often, I suspect, encourage ribbing.
photodog
Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthor
I nominate this for the "Classic Put-down of the week" award....
It takes real skill to link Bavaria ownership with having smallpox.... the work of a seasoned pro.
bluedragon
Well-Known Member
Oh don't you believe it my friend!! "Yeah, of course I wouldn't have had a Mondeo but it's what the company gave me"...heard in every bar in the land, 'cos he's heard so many times that Ford = **** and BMW = you've arrived in life, that he now has to defend his motor before he's even challenged!
Actually Haydude has gone bit quiet. Are you down at the yacht brokers looking for a Ford Mondeo without smallpox, or just gone to lunch??
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Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
I nominate this for the "Classic Put-down of the week" award....
It takes real skill to link Bavaria ownership with having smallpox.... the work of a seasoned pro.
Its a cracker isnt it?!! LOL
VO5
Well-Known Member
What you are missing is these accreditations are Nanny State Pronouncements, and hence meaningless. It is very easy for the unwary to slip into acceptance mode of such nonsenses. As the state progressively becomes emboldened in the false notion all of us are children so their edicts become more and more infantile and irrelevant. I shouldn't let it worry you or for you to take any of these ideas seriously.
bendyone
Well-Known Member
minkysailing
Well-Known Member
Dear Haydude,
Before me I hold a brand new Dufou 34e owners manual. I have also the Dufour 40 owners manual from 2005. No where (not to suprisingly) is there any reference to the quote you make about Dufour Yachts claiming their boat can exceed CE Cat A!! If it helps this is what it actually says in the manual....
"Design category
Your DUFOUR 40 comes under the OCEAN-GOING design category A.
Under conditions of normal use, your boat is designed to sail in waves with a significant height exceeding
4 m and winds of force 8 or above on the Beaufort scale, and to withstand the severest conditions.
This sailing capability is equally dependent on the skills of the crew, their physical capacities, the
maintenance of the boat and its equipment.
So always take care before putting to sea.
DUFOUR YACHTS is not able to guarantee perfect functioning of the boat in exceptional sea conditions
(violent storms, hurricanes, cyclones, waterspouts, etc.)"
You Pay for what you get....this includes the build quality, the quality of the fixtures and fittings, the design (and subsequent customer's experience' ) the aftersales service and the level of is more important is the cost of ownership. There is no point buying a boat that was 'good value' then after year 4 regretting this as you found early on it sails poorly, has high maintenance costs, the dealer has rubbish after sales and its value has dropped through the floor....its at this point regret sets in...
bluedragon
Well-Known Member
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
Its a very good analogy really, fully loaded Mondeo or a basic BMW. Bl00dy expensive badge!! Thats the reality of it.
I was talking to a Bav owner recently, and he doesnt just poodle around the Solent either. He told be when he bought his Bav he also looked at a 'premium Swedish' boat, and he said he could not see the extra £50k they wanted for the premium (BMW?) boat.
mattnj
Well-Known Member
oh dear
Lady Campanula
N/A
What they can't do is exceed 1.4√WL, 'cept on the back of a truck. And what on earth does the height of a sea above 4m have to do with the continued capacity to float, move and steer?
Tranona
Well-Known Member
I support that view having owned a Bavaria from new for 10 years. To get the extra x% that an HR for example gives you (and x is small, but clearly there) you pay a very large premium.
To Haydude just assess the boat on how well you think it meets your needs against how much it will cost (if money is an issue). You will never get anywhere near the limits of the capability of the boat. There are, of course boats with more (or less) comfort, speed, finish or whatever individual characteristic you think important, but the overall package is hard to beat.
alant
Well-Known Member
MGN 280 (M)
Taken from another forum
"MCA at its Marine Guidance Note 280 (M) "Small Vessels in Commercial Use for Sport or Pleasure, Workboats and Pilot Boats – Alternative Construction Standards" stablishes two "Permitted Areas of Operation" for RCD's Design Category A.
One of them is Code "0", allowing boats unrestricted area, and the second one is Code "1" that goes up to 150 miles from a safe haven. It depends on the range of stability of the vessel. This is applicable only if RCD Category assessement has been done using Options 1 or 2 of Section 6.1 of ISO 12217-2, this is, performing Stability Tests.
They categorize RCD's Category A into two zones/codes, as above mentioned, category B into two zones/codes and Category C into three zones/codes. So there is at least a national authority who thinks RCD's categorizations are not enough and need a deeper and more careful one, including further stability criteria.
In Spain, France and Portugal also exists this further categorization, by means of the so called 'sailing zones'. I do not know the criteria for Portugal or France, but in Spain authorities only consider the safety equipment carried aboard to fix the 'sailing zone' asigned to every particular boat, not extra stability requirements.
Here the general stability criteria used (sailing monohull) by the MCA:
1.- the area under the righting lever curve (GZ curve) should be not less than 0.055 metre -radians up to 30 degrees angle of heel and not less than 0.09 metre - radians up to 40 degrees angle of heel or the angle of downflooding if this angle is less;
2.- the area under the GZ curve between the angles of heel of 30 and 40 degrees or between 30 degrees and the angle of downflooding if this less than 40 degrees, should be not less than 0.03 metre - radians;
3.- the righting lever (GZ) should be at least 0.20 metres at an angle of heel equal to or greater than 30 degrees;
4.- the maximum GZ should occur at an angle of heel of not less than 25 degrees; and
5.- after correction for free surface effects, the initial metacentric height (GM) should not be less than 0.35 metres.
(Interesting to note they coincide, almost textually, with IMO's fishing vessels stability criteria).
The GZ curves should have a positive range of not less than the angle determined by the formula 90+60x(24-LOA)/17, for Codes "0" and "1", and or 90°, whichever is the greater.
In the damaged condition, the residual stability should be such that the angle of equilibrium does not exceed 7 degrees from the upright, the resulting righting lever curve has a range to the downflooding angle of at least 15 degrees beyond the angle of equilibrium, the maximum righting lever within that range is not less than 100mm and the area under the curve is not less than 0.015 metre radians. This damage should not cause the vessel to float at a waterline less than 75mm from the weatherdeck at any point. Proposals to accept reduced freeboard or immersion of the margin line may be accepted subject to special consideration.
Curves of statical stability (GZ curves) should be produced for:-
1.- Loaded departure, 100% consumables;
2.- Loaded arrival, 10% consumables;
3.- Anticipated service conditions; and
4.- Conditions involving lifting appliances (when appropriate).
In addition, simplified stability information in the form of a Maximum KG Curve should be provided, including a worked example to illustrate its use.
Maximum free surface moments should be included within the Loaded Departure condition"
“Design Category” means a description of the wind and sea conditions for which a vessel is considered suitable under the EU Recreational Craft Directive 94/25/EC of 16th June 1994, and used for the application of relevant ISO and CEN standards.
A - Ocean, wind exceeding F8 , waves exceeding 4m
B- Offshore, wind up to & including F8, waves up to & including 4m
C - Inshore, wind up to & including F6, waves up to & including 2m
Taken from another forum
"MCA at its Marine Guidance Note 280 (M) "Small Vessels in Commercial Use for Sport or Pleasure, Workboats and Pilot Boats – Alternative Construction Standards" stablishes two "Permitted Areas of Operation" for RCD's Design Category A.
One of them is Code "0", allowing boats unrestricted area, and the second one is Code "1" that goes up to 150 miles from a safe haven. It depends on the range of stability of the vessel. This is applicable only if RCD Category assessement has been done using Options 1 or 2 of Section 6.1 of ISO 12217-2, this is, performing Stability Tests.
They categorize RCD's Category A into two zones/codes, as above mentioned, category B into two zones/codes and Category C into three zones/codes. So there is at least a national authority who thinks RCD's categorizations are not enough and need a deeper and more careful one, including further stability criteria.
In Spain, France and Portugal also exists this further categorization, by means of the so called 'sailing zones'. I do not know the criteria for Portugal or France, but in Spain authorities only consider the safety equipment carried aboard to fix the 'sailing zone' asigned to every particular boat, not extra stability requirements.
Here the general stability criteria used (sailing monohull) by the MCA:
1.- the area under the righting lever curve (GZ curve) should be not less than 0.055 metre -radians up to 30 degrees angle of heel and not less than 0.09 metre - radians up to 40 degrees angle of heel or the angle of downflooding if this angle is less;
2.- the area under the GZ curve between the angles of heel of 30 and 40 degrees or between 30 degrees and the angle of downflooding if this less than 40 degrees, should be not less than 0.03 metre - radians;
3.- the righting lever (GZ) should be at least 0.20 metres at an angle of heel equal to or greater than 30 degrees;
4.- the maximum GZ should occur at an angle of heel of not less than 25 degrees; and
5.- after correction for free surface effects, the initial metacentric height (GM) should not be less than 0.35 metres.
(Interesting to note they coincide, almost textually, with IMO's fishing vessels stability criteria).
The GZ curves should have a positive range of not less than the angle determined by the formula 90+60x(24-LOA)/17, for Codes "0" and "1", and or 90°, whichever is the greater.
In the damaged condition, the residual stability should be such that the angle of equilibrium does not exceed 7 degrees from the upright, the resulting righting lever curve has a range to the downflooding angle of at least 15 degrees beyond the angle of equilibrium, the maximum righting lever within that range is not less than 100mm and the area under the curve is not less than 0.015 metre radians. This damage should not cause the vessel to float at a waterline less than 75mm from the weatherdeck at any point. Proposals to accept reduced freeboard or immersion of the margin line may be accepted subject to special consideration.
Curves of statical stability (GZ curves) should be produced for:-
1.- Loaded departure, 100% consumables;
2.- Loaded arrival, 10% consumables;
3.- Anticipated service conditions; and
4.- Conditions involving lifting appliances (when appropriate).
In addition, simplified stability information in the form of a Maximum KG Curve should be provided, including a worked example to illustrate its use.
Maximum free surface moments should be included within the Loaded Departure condition"
“Design Category” means a description of the wind and sea conditions for which a vessel is considered suitable under the EU Recreational Craft Directive 94/25/EC of 16th June 1994, and used for the application of relevant ISO and CEN standards.
A - Ocean, wind exceeding F8 , waves exceeding 4m
B- Offshore, wind up to & including F8, waves up to & including 4m
C - Inshore, wind up to & including F6, waves up to & including 2m
bluedragon
Well-Known Member
There's been a lovely 2000 HR34 for sale all summer in Hamble. Was at £128K I think, but now lower. Wife drools over it (but points out there's no wet locker). Day or so later 2000 Bav.34, teak decks, all the goodies, looks as new, has a wet locker, £49K, wife drools over it! Yes, for some strange reason (perhaps because late Aunt Hilda hasn't left me £50+K in her will) a sudden dose of economic reality beats me over the head I conclude that maybe these Bavarias are the real "steal of the century"
haydude
Well-Known Member
I took that literally from my Dufour Classic's Owner's Manual. I was under the impression that the new Dufour are not as solidly built as the old ones and your quote seems to confirm my suspicions as they no longer state that they exceed Cat A.
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
Didn't BMW 3-series sales in the UK overtake Mondeos a couple of years back?
Me? 1994 Nissan Micra and 1975 Citroen DS. Make of that what you will!
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
I bought Jumblie because I liked her looks. Oh how I wish a cheaper builder than Victoria had made something looking like that ...
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
Having owned Dufour's and Jeaneau's The only feel from statics that I have been able to relate to the boat is the AVS and ballast ratio. All were Cat A but that IMHO is almost a meanless qualification.
The other aspect often missed in "quality" boats is that for any given length they are heavier in addition to a greater ballast ratio. This does account for some of the extra cost as ultimartely we are paying for material cost per kg! As others have said it does not in many peoples opinions justify all the extra cost and both quality and production boats use the same makes of engines and fittings only the size may vary! eg Volvo or Yanmar engines, Lewmar or Harken winches and tracks - it goes on.
Before buying one boat I produced a spreadsheet listing all these but discovered even that could be misleading as "X" boats include the inner galvanised structural frame as part of the ballast when for other makes this strengthening is in GRP and is included in the hull weight! Not sure how Arcona deal with this.
Ultimately go for some test sails, for any production boat - the older the boat the larger the fittings, winches etc for any given length and also the better the internal timber is!
Go to a charter company that has both the makes you are interested and ask their opinion of quality, reliability, after sales service, running costs and sailability.
The other aspect often missed in "quality" boats is that for any given length they are heavier in addition to a greater ballast ratio. This does account for some of the extra cost as ultimartely we are paying for material cost per kg! As others have said it does not in many peoples opinions justify all the extra cost and both quality and production boats use the same makes of engines and fittings only the size may vary! eg Volvo or Yanmar engines, Lewmar or Harken winches and tracks - it goes on.
Before buying one boat I produced a spreadsheet listing all these but discovered even that could be misleading as "X" boats include the inner galvanised structural frame as part of the ballast when for other makes this strengthening is in GRP and is included in the hull weight! Not sure how Arcona deal with this.
Ultimately go for some test sails, for any production boat - the older the boat the larger the fittings, winches etc for any given length and also the better the internal timber is!
Go to a charter company that has both the makes you are interested and ask their opinion of quality, reliability, after sales service, running costs and sailability.
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
Wouldnt get excited about the Micra (could anyone!) but the DS? Respect!
Sorry thread drift!!