DIY self tacking staysail

[GHA]

Just bored working on site having a think about this so might not come to be for a while but.....

reckon this would work for a self tacking staysail?

• track between existing staysail sheet blocks made from a bit of dyneema stretched across the deck with short piece stainless tube with an eye welded on then couple of blocks attached to the eye
• sheet goes from one winch to edge of track then across to blocks on the track, up to a block on the clew then back down to the other track block and across to the other track edge and back to the other winch.

Sort of like this >

Or maybe this would be easier >

Might be handy and fun once in a while single handed short tacking up a river or something. Cost would be zero with materials already onboard - my kinda price .

Anyone done it? Any thoughts?

ta

 

[Neeves]

We have almost exactly what you show in the first image - except our, curved, track is right at the mast. You could replace the track with taut dyneema or wire - all you need is decent securement points (and maybe some way to tension the 'track'?).

Our single sheet runs from the sail to a block on the track, forward to the bow bridge deck crossbeam to a turning block, across the bow to another turning block and then back to the transom, clutch and winch.

Ours was set up for a self tacking furling jib (15^2m), really a No 4, but we have an inner forestay which was there for a storm jib but we also have a staysail both of which are hanked and can use the same kit. Many of these sails are a bit flat - and of less value if you want to crack off a bit (but who cares if you are not racing).

The whole lot can be handled single handed.

The furler for the jib also takes our 150% genoa, sheet tracks on cabin roof, cross sheeting to a single winch. If the weather is iffy we drop the genoa and replace with the jib (same furler). The staysail or storm jib (depends on the forecast) are hanked on to the inner forestay and lashed to the deck (ready to hoist). We are geared up to barber haul the 150% genoa (30^2m) to allow reaching in stronger winds when our screacher is a bit overpowered (45^2m for a 38' cat).

You need to think through how you are going to swap sheets but once you have the sequence - its all very simple.

Your idea, replacing the track with wire, should work - you might need to think how the blocks on the wire/dyneema are going to cross the deck, when you tack - damage to deck/block?

Jonathan

 

[Daydream believer]

I do not quite understand the first part of your post but if you are suggesting a wire or dynema track then I doubt that will work on its own.
What might work is a length of pipe with welded washers each end so that the runner that travels along it cannot come off it.
Then pass a wire or dynema through the pipe & fasten it each end to the deck. This will give a temporary experimental "floating" track.
The pipe stops the dynema forming a " kink" within its length as the pipe will always remain straight. This will encourage the sheet to travel right to the end.
It will also allow you to adjust the angle of the pipe to the clew so you get the sheeting angle correct before making the final rigid fixing.
On the Hanse the sheet goes up the mast to a point below the halyard pulley. So if you have a spinnaker pole uphaul, or another halyard, you may be able to use that as a sheet, if it is long enough to come out the mast & back to a winch and use as a sheet.

 

[lw395]

The tension in a dyneema 'track' would be immense if the sheet tension is not going to lift it very far.
The curved track system works very well on dinghies like the RS800.

As I have found with the RS800, self tacking is really great, right up to the moment when you want to back the jib at close quarters.

 

[knuterikt]

The tension in a dyneema 'track' would be immense if the sheet tension is not going to lift it very far.
The curved track system works very well on dinghies like the RS800.

As I have found with the RS800, self tacking is really great, right up to the moment when you want to back the jib at close quarters.

can be solved by adding a barber haul.

 

[lw395]

can be solved by adding a barber haul.

Which? the lift on the track or the inability to instantly back the jib?
TBH, once you've gone down to a well sorted, non-overlapping jib, tacking singlehanded is not very difficult, if your cockpit is arranged with this in mind.
If the mainsheet is between the helm and the jib winches, and there's a cockpit table in the way, different story!

You can make the jib back with some lines which pull the traveller side to side. But not on an RS800!

I like to be able to back the jib geting off the mooring, YMMV.

 

[knuterikt]

Which? the lift on the track or the inability to instantly back the jib?
TBH, once you've gone down to a well sorted, non-overlapping jib, tacking singlehanded is not very difficult, if your cockpit is arranged with this in mind.
If the mainsheet is between the helm and the jib winches, and there's a cockpit table in the way, different story!

You can make the jib back with some lines which pull the traveller side to side. But not on an RS800!

I like to be able to back the jib geting off the mooring, YMMV.

i was referring to backing the jib.

 

[GHA]

The tension in a dyneema 'track' would be immense if the sheet tension is not going to lift it very far.
The curved track system works very well on dinghies like the RS800.

As I have found with the RS800, self tacking is really great, right up to the moment when you want to back the jib at close quarters.

No problem with tension on the dyneema. When there the staysail has wind in it and tension on the sheet the car will be hard up against one end of the dyneema or the other.
Don't think I've ever backed the staysail and can't see any way of having a self tacking jib on a cutter.........

 

[dunedin]

Why bother. A lot of wasted hardware IMHO.
A jib narrow enough to be self tacking can be very easily self tacked

 

[GHA]

Why bother. A lot of wasted hardware IMHO.

Sorry, you're right. I'll just give up instead. Save all that time of an hour or 2 one afternoon and expense of zero...

Should know better than to try anything new and maybe learn something.

(Sure you're on the right forum?? )

 

[JimC]

...A jib narrow enough to be self tacking can be very easily self tacked

?

 

[dunedin]

Sorry, you're right. I'll just give up instead. Save all that time of an hour or 2 one afternoon and expense of zero...

Should know better than to try anything new and maybe learn something.

(Sure you're on the right forum?? )

Well if you don't like my opinion / advice don't use it.

But I do quite a bit of single handed sailing. And do a lot of tacking to windward, enjoying tacking up narrow channels that other people motor up.

And in my experience a "self tacking" setup is just a lot of extra weight and deck clutter. With the right technique it should be easy to tack a 105-110% blade jib manually, and this is a lot more efficient than the compromised sail needed for a self tacker.
So IMHO a "self tacker" is something I would positively want to avoid on a boat. But do what you want

 

[lw395]

Why bother. A lot of wasted hardware IMHO.
A jib narrow enough to be self tacking can be very easily self tacked

I assume this means a jib with not much overlap is easy to tack manually, which is true if the cockpit is laid out with that in mind, less true on some boats.

 

[lw395]

No problem with tension on the dyneema. When there the staysail has wind in it and tension on the sheet the car will be hard up against one end of the dyneema or the other.
Don't think I've ever backed the staysail and can't see any way of having a self tacking jib on a cutter.........

I've not sailed cutters much, but I'd have thought rolling/dropping the jib then being able to back the staysail could be pretty handy
if picking up a mooring s/h or even leaving the mooring.
Anyone who's ever sailed a laser will tell you that rope travellers need an awful lot of tension in them for the block to go hard up against one end. But many boats use rope travellers OK with low tension and the moving block not being near the end while close hauled. The staysail wouldn't want to be sheeted out near the toe rail closehauled. On a reach you could usesome sort of Barber hauler or something.

 

[Daydream believer]

Well if you don't like my opinion / advice don't use it.

But I do quite a bit of single handed sailing. And do a lot of tacking to windward, enjoying tacking up narrow channels that other people motor up.

And in my experience a "self tacking" setup is just a lot of extra weight and deck clutter. With the right technique it should be easy to tack a 105-110% blade jib manually, and this is a lot more efficient than the compromised sail needed for a self tacker.
So IMHO a "self tacker" is something I would positively want to avoid on a boat. But do what you want

I sail single handed 95% of the time & would not be without my self tacking jib. I have a genoa & in the last 16 years I have only used it half a dozen times. I am now on my 4Th self tacking sail

 

[GHA]

I've not sailed cutters much, but I'd have thought rolling/dropping the jib then being able to back the staysail could be pretty handy
if picking up a mooring s/h or even leaving the mooring.
Anyone who's ever sailed a laser will tell you that rope travellers need an awful lot of tension in them for the block to go hard up against one end. But many boats use rope travellers OK with low tension and the moving block not being near the end while close hauled. The staysail wouldn't want to be sheeted out near the toe rail closehauled. On a reach you could usesome sort of Barber hauler or something.

Steel boats do have a few advantages, link of stainless chain is simple to weld to the deck then hopefully a short length of studding fed into dyneema, put under tension then coated with epoxy should take care of the track. Think our definitions of awful lot of tension are very different with dyneema basically being non stretch 20 or 30kg will be fine. The old track has already been ditched in favour of low friction rings after far to many bloddy toes so switching between self tacking and normal will take moments. Cant figure out how to alter the sheet angle self tacking so having the option would be nice, and still have to option of backing the staysail to heave to should the need arise.

 

[Daydream believer]

I believe that originally the OP just wanted to experiment and play about a bit. The permanent solution of a dynema line stretched across a deck will not work, steel deck or otherwise.
Tracks for self tacking sails are curved for a reason. If the track were to be straight & the jib sheet tensioned for windward work the sheet would take the shortest distance. that would be the centre of the line. More so as the line would certainly deflect towards the clew of the sail.
This means that the sail would not set outboard in its correct position after each tack.
By curving the track the sheet will always match the arc of the jib from its attachment point at the tack so as the boat goes about the car on the track will simply slide across to the relevant side.

An option to the track, not mentioned so far is a curved boom fitted to the deck near the tack. (I seem to recall the term "Hoyt boom" but may well be wrong with that) It being curved to clear the rails. The pivot point would need to be substantial . It has the advantage that as the sail is let out onto a run it allows more curvature in the foot & still keeps more leech tension because the pivot prevents some of the upward pull. I do not recall ever seeing a boat with one though.

 

[lw395]

I vaguley recall seeing a self tacking arrangement where the adjustment on the sheet was not done by leading it forwards?
The sheet ran parallel to a straight track, turned up to the sail on the carriage block, block on the sail, back to the carriage and off to the other side parallel to the track.
I can see it might be made to work, but the curved track with adjustable stops is always goingt o work better.

 

[GHA]

Tracks for self tacking sails are curved for a reason. If the track were to be straight & the jib sheet tensioned for windward work the sheet would take the shortest distance. that would be the centre of the line. More so as the line would certainly deflect towards the clew of the sail.

Makes no sense. How could the loose car somehow pull itself away from the force with no force on it? Do a force vector diagram and you'll see, the horizontal companant has to be outboard.
A curved track allows for moving the block inboard which the dyneema won't but that's no great hardship.

 

[lw395]

Just bored working on site having a think about this so might not come to be for a while but.....

reckon this would work for a self tacking staysail?

• track between existing staysail sheet blocks made from a bit of dyneema stretched across the deck with short piece stainless tube with an eye welded on then couple of blocks attached to the eye
• sheet goes from one winch to edge of track then across to blocks on the track, up to a block on the clew then back down to the other track block and across to the other track edge and back to the other winch.

Sort of like this >

Or maybe this would be easier >

Might be handy and fun once in a while single handed short tacking up a river or something. Cost would be zero with materials already onboard - my kinda price .

Anyone done it? Any thoughts?

ta

If you've already got the sail in question, it might be worth looking at the angles the sheet makes when it's set nicely. Then you can work out if the line unning from A to B in the diagram will pull the 'carriage' inboard more than the line from B to the sail pulls it outboard. Do that with a) an infinitely tight dyneema traveller and b) with the traveller line lifting a certain amount.
A useful variation to think about is to add a block to the sail, so the section from B to the sail clew becomes 2:1 or even 3:1, reducing the tendency of the line from A to B to pull the carriage towards the centre line.

I suspect the optimal angles of the sheet vary a lot, from sail to sail and boat to boat, not to mention wind strength..
Also there is the question of whether it only needs to work for nromal close hauled beating or whether versatility is wanted, being able to sheet the jib further out without getting a lot of twist etc.