Distress flare disposal. Expired pyrotechnics

[Nick Vass]

Pains Wessex and Comet distress flares are no longer British and are made in Hungary or Poland and owned by Drew Marine Inc, an American company. They no longer have the Highpost countermeasures military site on Salisbury Plain and so can no longer process expired distress flares or make safe defectives ones themselves in the UK.
To me this is not right as advice from them is to take expired flares to HMCG.
I did so last week taking some to Weymouth and Portland Coastguard who would not take them and sent me to the RNLI at Poole HQ who did.
Solent and Brixham HMCG will very reluctantly take in only up to twelve flares. The Coastguard stations that will take time expired pyrotechnics are few and far between. You have to travel long distances carry potentially dangerous explosives in your car.
Some chandlery shops will take in flares but only if you buy the same amount of new ones. Not all shops take them.
Some people buy flares online.
The flares that I disposed of had been dumped in the cockpit of an elderly gentleman’s yacht that he is selling. He is not going to buy new flares and the flares were not his.
In my opinion it should not be up to a charity like the RNLI or cash-strapped public bodies like the HMCG to do the work that the manufacturer should be doing!
I feel that Pains Wessex should build a site that can take back their expired flares and build the cost into the purchase price of a new pack of flares.
End of life corporate responsibility is this called?
What do others think?
Should manufacturers of flares be expected to process out of date pyros?
Nick

 

[[2574]]

Difficult issue. Two points:

1) I believe that Ocean Safety in Southampton will accept old pyrotechnics for a fee; IIRC it is about £1.50 per item. This information is probably twelve months old since I last contacted them so may be wrong now.

2) the disposal issue has partly caused me to stop buying flares and I now have none on board. I rely on EPIRB/DSCVHF/PLB for emergency communication.

rob

 

[rob2]

I tend to agree that ths is the only truly practical solution, after all it is not a viable option for the individual to commision the destruction of flares on an individual basis and there is no real reason for a public body to undertake the task other than expediancy. The placing of responsibility on the CG is now trotted out as a done deal, but since that was put in place there have been cuts in the CG budget and futher restrictions placed on the transport and storage of "dangerous" goods, in particular explosives. Actually it will cost many people as much in fuel and time taken to get their flares to a nominated CG base as to buy the replacements and I am told some stations have a considerable waiting list for disposals.

I wonder how it is that new flares can be got to a retailer and stored in marketable quantities (usually open on a shop shelf) whilst expired ones are so restricted in the quantity that can be carried. I have yet to hear a convincing argument as to why they are considered more dangerous. The main failure mode of flares is in failure to ignite, not for them to become unstable and the explosive power of a propellant reduces with age, too.

Rob.

 

[davidwf]

the BMF seems to have a service for their members at a cost per Kg, personally I would be happy to pay something to get rid of mine. Need to persuade my marina to get on-board and collect them I suppose.

http://www.britishmarine.co.uk/what...ating_fac/tep_disposal_service_in_associ.aspx

I think the flare manufacturers will be seeing the sales to the leisure sector disappearing. Bit short sighted but guess they make their money out of the commercial market. Wonder what they do with their flares.

 

[Tranona]

The arrangements for disposing of TEPs was reorganised in 2010 and there are 18 designated collection points around the country, mostly at coastguard sites (but not all sites have the facilities). These arrangements were well publicised at the time (but clearly not well enough given the ignorance on the subject). An explanation of the new system and list of centres can be found on the RYA site under Safety information.

 

[Sandyman]

'' You have to travel long distances carry potentially dangerous explosives in your car''

No more dangerous than the petrol you have in your tank.

All these problems with disposal come about because of some dreamed up expiry date by no doubt some pen pushing wizz kid. What nonsense.

I was using pyro on a daily basis in the 70's & 80's mostly chasing submarines.
All of it was dated pre- WW11 stuff & never failed.

 

[Nick Vass]

The arrangements for disposing of TEPs was reorganised in 2010 and there are 18 designated collection points around the country, mostly at coastguard sites (but not all sites have the facilities). These arrangements were well publicised at the time (but clearly not well enough given the ignorance on the subject). An explanation of the new system and list of centres can be found on the RYA site under Safety information.

As I said. HMGC will only take 12 flares and the centres are few and far between. This gentleman's boat is in Weymouth. Nearest Solent or Brixham.

Not many private boat owners are members of the BMF

As I said, I believe that the manufacturer should dispose of expired distress flares. Why should the tax payer pay for disposal. Most tax payers don't own boats.

Personally, I take my flares to the chandlery shop where I buy new ones. However, I only buy hand flares now and not para rockets. I have an EPIRB, DSC radio, handheld VHF and my children now have PLBs attached to their lifejackets.

Yes, Ocean Saftey do ispose of flares for a small fee but not everyone keeps their boat near to Southampton. Commercial charter yachts send in old ones when buying mostly from Ocean Safety.

Ocean Safety are very good but they give big discounts to commercial users and are expensive to private owners. Chanderly shops are much cheaper and people do buy from the cheapest source online.

Personally, I buy mine from Retreat Boatyard in Topsham who are very good and who take in the old ones. Not all shops do. Retreat have to pay to dispose of them! The manufacturers don't take them back.

I am not ignorant on the subject Tranona, thank you very much indeed

MRCC Aberdeen (licensed site: Buchan Sector Base) – 01224 592 334
MRCC Aberdeen (licensed site: St Andrews Sector Base) - 01224 592 334
MRCC Aberdeen (licensed site: Inverness Sector Base) – 01224 592 334
MRCC Belfast – 02891 463 933
MRCC Brixham – 01803 882 704
MRCC Clyde (licensed site: Girvan Coastguard Rescue Service) – 01475 729 988
MRCC Dover – 01304 210 008
MRCC Falmouth – 01326 317 575
MRCC Holyhead – 01407 762 051
MRCC Humber – 01262 672 317
MRCC Liverpool – 01519 313 341
MRCC Milford Haven – 01646 690 909
MRCC Shetland -01595 692 976
MRCC Solent – 02392 552 100
MRCC Stornoway – 01851 702 013
MRCC Thames -01255 675 518
MRCC Yarmouth (licensed site: North Norfolk Sector Base) – 01493 851 338

 

[[2574]]

the BMF seems to have a service for their members at a cost per Kg, personally I would be happy to pay something to get rid of mine. Need to persuade my marina to get on-board and collect them I suppose.

Excellent idea. I've emailed my marina manager suggesting that the four Plymouth marinas get together to organise an annual collection of TEP's via the BMF scheme. If anyone else reading this is in a Plymouth marina maybe they too will nudge their marina manager along the same direction.

Rob

 

[Ripster]

It needs to be like all waste these days. Official (licenced) disposal sites and a small charge if needed upon disposal for them to be dealt with - Mentioned by Tanona (though not the charge part!) I have just replaced mine. Brixham CG kindly took the old ones from me.

 

[Tranona]

As I said. HMGC will only take 12 flares and the centres are few and far between. This gentleman's boat is in Weymouth. Nearest Solent or Brixham.

Not many private boat owners are members of the BMF

As I said, I believe that the manufacturer should dispose of expired distress flares. Why should the tax payer pay for disposal. Most tax payers don't own boats.

Personally, I take my flares to the chandlery shop where I buy new ones. However, I only buy hand flares now and not para rockets. I have an EPIRB, DSC radio, handheld VHF and my children now have PLBs attached to their lifejackets.

Yes, Ocean Saftey do ispose of flares for a small fee but not everyone keeps their boat near to Southampton. Commercial charter yachts send in old ones when buying mostly from Ocean Safety.

Ocean Safety are very good but they give big discounts to commercial users and are expensive to private owners. Chanderly shops are much cheaper and people do buy from the cheapest source online.

Personally, I buy mine from Retreat Boatyard in Topsham who are very good and who take in the old ones. Not all shops do. Retreat have to pay to dispose of them! The manufacturers don't take them back.

I am not ignorant on the subject Tranona, thank you very much indeed

MRCC Aberdeen (licensed site: Buchan Sector Base) – 01224 592 334
MRCC Aberdeen (licensed site: St Andrews Sector Base) - 01224 592 334
MRCC Aberdeen (licensed site: Inverness Sector Base) – 01224 592 334
MRCC Belfast – 02891 463 933
MRCC Brixham – 01803 882 704
MRCC Clyde (licensed site: Girvan Coastguard Rescue Service) – 01475 729 988
MRCC Dover – 01304 210 008
MRCC Falmouth – 01326 317 575
MRCC Holyhead – 01407 762 051
MRCC Humber – 01262 672 317
MRCC Liverpool – 01519 313 341
MRCC Milford Haven – 01646 690 909
MRCC Shetland -01595 692 976
MRCC Solent – 02392 552 100
MRCC Stornoway – 01851 702 013
MRCC Thames -01255 675 518
MRCC Yarmouth (licensed site: North Norfolk Sector Base) – 01493 851 338

The RNLI in Poole is a designated centre listed in the RYA leaflet.

The ignorance comment was not directed at you but reflects the poor level of knowledge about the arrangements if the number of times the subject comes up on these fora is any guide.

As the leaflet explains the constraints on the collection of TEPs is a consequence of legislation on how they are to be handled, not just the seeming unwillingness of manufacturers or retailers to deal with them.

When this subject came up a couple of weeks ago several people suggested their local council recycling centre accepted TEPs as they have a licence for dealing with hazardous waste. Don't know if this is general but might be worth investigating.

So maybe the target for change is to get the legislation changed. Best of luck with that one!

 

[FishyInverness]

I wonder how it is that new flares can be got to a retailer and stored in marketable quantities (usually open on a shop shelf) whilst expired ones are so restricted in the quantity that can be carried.
Rob.

Licensing! Retailers are restricted by their explosives license as to how much stock they can carry. This also restricts them from taking expired product back, and in turn each flare has an associated disposal fee, plus onerous transport costs to get them back to the place that disposes of them - this is why retailers don't routinely offer take back schemes, or they would A) Soon run out of space to store expired and sell new - spot inspections by the council can occur at any time and if over the NEC limit, the premises can be shut down and lose their explosives licence, and B) there would be a price increase of around £2.00 PER FLARE, leading to those that do dispose being undercut by those that don't...and unfortunately consumers tend to be driven by buying cheapest, not always service driven!

Flares aren't legally permitted to be stored open on a shop shelf, retailers are supplied with Dummy units for this purpose, all flares have to be stored in a lockable metal container.

Also have to be carried on road by a courier licensed to carry Class 3 (I think) explosives.

 

[rob2]

Strangely familiar! When I used to play with muzzle loaders, the local police tried to insist that I stored my powder in a lockable metal box. Powder will burn very fast in open air, but become an explosive as we normally think of it when placed under constraint, so the metal box is what turns it into a bomb!

Glad to hear that the ones on display are dummies, though.

Rob.

 

[Seajet]

One thing about transporting any flares by car etc, if one has a serious road accident the fire & rescue bods may be a bit miffed if rockets start whizzing past their ears, so a metal box and a way of informing people in case one is unconscious would be good, in a perfect world.

It is still a big problem getting TEP's accepted by anyone, and for me it's a long way to Solent CG, even if they're having a good day and feel like accepting them !

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

Do flares float?

 

[duncan99210]

I've got some Greek hand held red flares, which state on them that when they are time expired you should throw them overboard.........

 

[prv]

I've got some Greek hand held red flares, which state on them that when they are time expired you should throw them overboard.........

I have a 70s or early 80s copy of the Glénans sailing manual, translated into (sometimes rather charming) English. It lists sailing out into deep water to dispose of your old flares as one of the periodic maintenance tasks needed before or after winter lay-up

Pete

 

[lenseman]

Do flares float?

Oooh! You NAUGHTY boy !!!


,

 

[NUTMEG]

Nov 5th?

Live 40 miles from the sea. In rural area.

 

[pvb]

They're good for lighting bonfires...

 

[prv]

Live 40 miles from the sea. In rural area.

As long as it's been raining a lot recently, and there really is nobody else's property anywhere around...

Marine parachute flares are still burning when they come down. They rely on landing in the sea to put them out. Not much fun if they land on someone's shed/haystack/dry crop.

There were photos a while back of a boat in Cowes that had one land in the cockpit on bonfire night. Not a pretty sight.

Pete