Disproportionate Harbour Speeding Fines?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Deleted User YDKXO
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OK

Duly reprimanded over Conservancy.

But same logic applies.

The notion of paying costs is that the prosecuting authority is not unduly out of pocket by bringing the prosecution.

However

Costs have tobe "reasonable" and must not be part of he punishment. It must most certainly not conribute to the running of the organisation other than actual costs incurred, so the efficiency should not be an issue. Certainly not a 10x issue.

I do not see that it is 10 x as expensive for a conservancy to bring a prosecution as for CPS.

Number of cases not really that big a factor. What happens normally in this sort of thing is that they will bring as many cases as possible to court on the same day or half day and run a range of prosecutions.

The most expensive cases for the prosecution are those where the accused does not turn up, and these I would suggest are much less common in this type of civil prosecution than in criminal cases.

Just something I've got a bee in my bonnet about.
 
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However, I don't believe that the fines for the two cases in Chi Harbour were over the top

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You're right, for as far as I'm aware the max penalty is £2500.00. And that is why you won't see me doing more than 8 knots in the harbour.

However, we frequently see these Laser 5000s & RS thingys doing probably double the limit. And are actively encouraged to do so. Why, when the limit is 8 knots? You never hear of them getting fined. Double standards I suspect.
 
The speed limit only applies to vessels under power ...

Yes, it may seem strange that sailing/racing dinghies can legally go as fast as they like (max speed I've recorded is 22 knots - boy where we flying!) whilst the power driver leisure users are restricted to 8 knots ... I cannot answer this one fully, I can only say that the faster racing boats are requested to give way to other users in the harbour and not race within the East Head Anchorage area. It does take quite a bit of skill to keep these things flying about at speed - and they break easily too, so I guess they are assumed to be less likely to have a collision? Also - they do not create a lot of noise (the crew may do, but the boat doesn't!) so there are no noise levels to control. The HM is mindful of these fast craft (He races both dinghies and keel boats in the harbour) and I would not be supprised to see a restriction on dinghy class in the harbour if it were to get out of hand. I think I'm right in saying he'd rather request the co-operation from clubs to keep things running smoothly, rather than write another bylaw.
 
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However, we frequently see these Laser 5000s & RS thingys doing probably double the limit. And are actively encouraged to do so. Why, when the limit is 8 knots? You never hear of them getting fined. Double standards I suspect.

[/ QUOTE ] Does the Chichester Harbour speed limit apply only to power? Or to all boats?
 
So it is a case of double standards,then?

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I can only say that the faster racing boats are requested to give way to other users in the harbour and not race within the East Head Anchorage area.

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This really surprises me. Never have one of these boats ever given way to me, and they do hool around in the anchorage. We've even seen them recently dodging swimmers. The result of which could be far worse than a bit of wash, and no doubt would attract a lesser fine.

The speed limit should be the speed limit IMO
 
The same Harbour Master also came out with this a real pearl

'Chichester Harbour is not a narrow channel so power should always give way to sail'.(I would like to watch him navigate that solar powered monstrosity of a thing to Bosham when the dinghies are out)

I ready do think the HM has misplaced some of his priorities in favor of the enjoyment of his drinking buddies.

Some sail craft are dangerous in a small busy Harbour and should be banned along with the jet skies.
 
Double standards ... well - that is debateable ... although I'd agree that the racing dinghies have got a lot faster in the last 10 years or so.... it used to be that International 505's were about the fastest on the water, but now the International 14s just about outstrip everything and the RS800's and RS700's are not far behind. Then you have the International Canoe ... that is just mad! The new hyrdoplane moth ... that's quick! And there are far more boats that are similar speed to the 505's (my RS400 included)

None of the Asymetrics have ever given way to you? Which class(es) are you referring to? I used to sail an RS800 and I would deliberatly place my gybes so that I was out of the way of other harbour users as much as possible - this was as much for my benefit as it was for theirs as with the kite up and gusty winds my course could change by 20-30 degrees and back again with a couple of seconds - I'd rather have the space to do that than worry about someone not keeping clear - I think most of the fast asymetrics are the same (I say most as there are always plonkers about!). I'd be supprised if no asymetrics had kept clear of you - you'd just not notice it as they are looking about 1/2mile to a mile infront for free water - and so would not actually put themselves on a collision course with you to start with.

I haven't been racing at the weekends so I don't know what the racing through EH anchorage situation is like - are you sure they are racing and not just other pleasure boats .... it may well be worth dropping the federation sec an email (www.chifed.org) with pictures .... as all harbour clubs are members of the federation.
 
Could you post the context of that quote?

Im sure the HM would not refer to Chichester HARBOUR as a channel - narrow or not ... there is the Chichester Channel ... runs from Rookwood to Chalkdock and round the corner to the mouth of Bosham channel ... and that isn't narrow, but does get very busy ....

Perhaps he should set up lanes like in the swimming pool .... Members only, Fast lane, slow lane ... and the rest of the pool for them that can't swim properly.... /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
I dont want to get too heavily involved in a debate that will no doubt end in tears but the HM wrote an article either in or with the 2006 Chichester guide which I found surprising in two respects

a) he is arrogant to think his opinion on this is worthy of print unless he has case history to quote.

b) There are several areas with in the Chichester Harbour where a situation could arise especially in side winds where a dinghy should not expect a larger powered craft to be able to get out of the way in time to avoid a collision.
 
From "The Rules of the Road - Navigating Safely in Chi Hbr"

"The term narrow channel is relative and depends on a vessel's means of propulsion, size, manouevrability and the prevailing conditions. For instance, all vessels should treat mooring fairways as narrow channels, whereas the main channels may only be considered narrow channels by large vessels".

My comment would be: what is a "large" vessel ?

dv.
 
I am suprised if he did write anything that alienated any group of harbour users - I know the HM and I've found he chooses his words very carefully. - Certainly nothing I could see in the 2006 Harbour news ... and a different mesg in the 2005 introduction: http://www.conservancy.co.uk/uploads/user_documents/hm_2005.pdf

I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to say "power gives way to sail .. full stop" ... as there are always situations that would contradict it.

I do know the Harbour Office is trying hard to promote harmony amoungst all the harbour users (can we all sing in D major please!) and that includes raising awareness for everyone, and trying to get everyone to act in a friendly and curteous manner - this is obviously an impossible task, but one that needs constant attention otherwise we will find it will only end up in further restrictions on harbour use (you can only enter the harbour every other tuesday at 10:55 when the moon is in it's last quarter ... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif)

So we go from "Over the top fines" through "Well saily boats are allowed to speed" then "And the costs are too high" to the "harbour master is biased" ..... sounds just like a good chance to have a moan to me ...
An antagonistic attitude towards the harbour authorities that are just trying to keep the harbour open for everyones use is not really constructive is it.
 
Anything bigger than mine ... and that depends which boat I'm in....

Can no one use a bit of common sense? Does everyone have to have everything written down to the letter? Do you really want your use of the harbour prescribed to you?
Rather than looking the other way and hoping the other vessel will keep clear, try hailing them (not hollering at them! although sometimes that might help too!) if you think you will be unable to keep clear - or if you are unsure of their intentions ... Ok - some of them may be going fast - so too far away to shout, but some are within hailing distance....
 
I wouldnt get a quote wrong.
I will look tonight but it could be on the boat so may have to send you a PM in a couple of weeks after we have been on the boat.
 
Clearly not.

If everyone actually stuck to some of the more general guidance (e.g. larger yachts sailing on the starboard side of the channel) then a lot of the finer detail of the "oops almost had you there" colregs wouldn't be needed.

The fun starts when you get the three way mix of mobos trundling along the starboard side of the channel, sailing yachts using the port side (cos it's shorter that way, and doesn't power give way to sail ?), plus the dinghies going acrossways (because that's where the race course has been set).

It makes boating in the harbour interesting: I'm not complaining really, and I've managed not to hit anyone yet. I get to see at close quarters some really quite impressive sailing vessels, especially some of the very graceful low-freeboard wooden types from Itchenor SC. I might get more grumpy if I'm impaled at anchor one day.

dv.
 
ok ... I'm just not certain of the source of that quote - not something I would've attributed to the HM ... nor any of the sailing clubs - as some seem to have the attitude - "everything gives way to me" .... /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
I had to get "grumpy" at a load of 420's last yr ... they suddenly popped up their kites and head right out at West pole giving me no time to keep clear as there were 1/2 dozen other vessels around us in the same situation .. a quick shout of "Heads Up" had them alter course around me with minimum fuss ... I think they were under race training at the time so I blame the coach...

Not racing through EH anchorage is a tricky one as the anchorage limits are not defined and on a busy day it can easily take up the whole channel - I did look at defining a "no race" area, but it would be impossible to gauge when actually sailing.

Oh - and there'd be hell to pay if anyone impails me with their bowsprit ... /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Hmm - with so many formulites based in Chi harbour perhaps we should have a team race .... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
>Hmm - with so many formulites based in Chi harbour perhaps we should have a team race ....

Errm, might need either a dispensation to ignore the speed limit (34kts?) or I could use my windsurf board: I'll be fine if it's an F6 and the course consists of one broad reach with no turns /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

dv.
 
No - I was thinking of F3 on a triangular course ... and no dispensation to ignore the speed limit ! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
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A couple of pillocks get caught and fined for excessive speeding and you're up in arms

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My arms have never been up! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif But i suspect you were repluing to someone else really.

I agree with the fines. I was, first of all, questioning your statement that the speed limit was needed to save the life of your single seal and went on to point out that your seal was perfectly able to hang on to life without a speed limit.

I then went on to point out that North Wales's seals are robustly healthy despite there being only one 1 kilometre speed limit.

The Menai Strait is pretty enclosed, being bounded on two sides by brown stuff and is still an important conservation area despite suffering an appalling oil spill a month ago, thanks to some nice travelling folk. As to channels, the Straights have many narrow channels, including The Swellies, the channel out through Beamauris and the channel from PD out into the Irish sea through Abermenai.

I hope I don't have to come down there and indulge in fisticuffs. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
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