Disproportionate Harbour Speeding Fines?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Deleted User YDKXO
  • Start date Start date
I don't doubt that seals (and dolphins) are very agile ... so how come a dolphin died from prop injurys earlier this year? Don't get hit by props? Yer Right ... you could say that driving at 80mph is quite safe as children don't get hit by cars travelling at 80mph - except if they do that speed through normal streets where kids can be found in greater concentration....

I mentioned seals as they are among some of our large amount of wildlife to be found in Chi harbour. The actual effect of speeding on the safety of human life within the harbour is less than down your local high street - but it does have an effect on the rest of the inhabitants that we should be protecting.

The Chichester Harbour conservancy is not part of the local council - so don't go lumping them in with them. The maximum fine for speeding in the harbour is £2k... It has been inplace for many years. The harbour authority does prosecute a small number of offenders every year - perhaps you should check on how much the "revenue" from those fines have increased?

Anyway - if you don't speed you don't get fined ... QED!

Or perhaps we should just not give a damm if someone decides that the bylaws don't apply to them - let them get on with it - doesn't hurt anyone does it? Until everyone does it ...

FYI it isn't just power driven vessels that have a restriction - there is no Catamaran racing within the harbour as it is deemed to be inapproriate for the general use of the harbour ... I wouldn't be supprised if in the near future some of the faster assymetrics are also encouraged to race outside the harbour too...
 
I think this one is going to run away with us unless checked....

Summary -
I believe the fines for speeding in Chi harbour were fair - for these cases. Compared with driving a car at 3-4 times the limit these guys got off lightly - they would've lost their licence, had a fine and had years of increased insurance to pay.

I believe that there are too many other crimes that are not treated harshly enough, my reasoning is the increase in reported crimes year on year. There is obviously not enough deterrant in the punishment or social responsibility learnt to prevent the crimes to start with.

Very often the courts cannot dish out an appropriate sentence if the police have not charged with the correct offence - don't ask me to go into details cos I don't know - but I've heard enough to know that the legal system is flippin complicated therefore mistakes are easy to make - which usually means the charged gets off with less than they perhaps deserve.
 
Dolphins frequently get hurt by props, because the love playing in the prop wash. I've been underwater in Dingle watching Funghi the dolphin spinning around in the prop wash of a small boat and outboard.
Never seen a seal behave the same way.
 
I agree fully. We've had our boat in Chi harbour since the start of July and I've frankly been shocked at the number of boats I've seen blatently disregarding the speed limit, and probably more raggies than mobos too. Example - last Saturday we were thrown about really badly whilst north of the West Winner, which itself is well inside the speed restricted area, by some idiot who passed very closely at about twice the limit creating a huge wash. I seriously worry that one of these days my 2 year old son is going to be sent flying and get injured when we should be completely safe in the harbour.

IMHO the problem is not the fines levied here but that punishments levied by the Courts for traffic and other offences are often much too lenient.
 
Aw come on Mike and Dave get a grip.

A fine should be

big enough to hurt and a deterrent to others. These guys are not the idiots driving without tax and insurance getting £60 fines which if they do pay they have to borrow.

4 x the speed limit on the road will get you more than a fine it will get you bird!

The speeders are hardly poor playing in their 20 grand toys. Magnum in his million odd quid yacht got fined 6k for speeding and it hurt, so much so he wrote endlessly on here at the time. Proportion is what you are after, well in that case, Magnum got off very lightly. Had he been fined £500 he would have been laughing, it would dent my purse far worse than his.

People drive to Le Mans or Monaco with the 90 odd euros in their pocket to pay the rozzer if they get caught speeding, bikers I know treat the fine as a toll not a deterrent. £60 to a 750,000 yacht is hardly going to dent his wallet never mind pride.

I say double the fines, keep doubling until people are too scared to speed in harbours and then it might stop, therefore the cash cow as you suggest wont exist, but harbours will be safer. A cash cow as you suggest only exists when the fines are set too low. hurmph!

Tell me, either of you. Honestly, If you kids were rowing the tender and where mown down by a rib doing 20kts in the harbour, one dies the other is maimed for life. Do you

Say, huh, thats life, thieves and druggies need catching this was a genuine accident

or

lock the speeding moron up.

I think they should clamp right down and fine every idiot who speeds in the harbour, including yachts, including tenders. On Sunday I needed to cross the harbour in my tender, I took one look at the Windermere navy darting about in their 20ft speedboats and put my lifejacket on and VHF around my neck.

This can not go on, thank god at least one authority is doing something proactive.
 
I think the byelaws for chichester for exceeding the speed limit are up to £2000- or maybe its £2500. I think there was a case a few years back where someone got fined that or very close- and that was for waterskiing in fog in the harbour entrance and then punching the harbor patrol (allegedly, i d better add).
I d agree £500 or so is a hefty fine, but if the max is £2000, I guess it was possibly quite light.
Is it 10,000 boats in Chichester harbour? Thats alot of potential risk, and thats before we get on to the Consevancy angle. I dont think £60 is going to deter anyone these days.
From my experience, the Patrol tends to have a quiet word if its a bit marginal- though hanging around the entrance with a radar gun seems a bit excessive, unless they need "proof" for the court. Seems the smaller boats get picked on more than the palaces though.
 
[ QUOTE ]
From my experience, the Patrol tends to have a quiet word if its a bit marginal

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the way we try and do it in Pompy but there is always the odd one....................
 
My point was that I agree with the speed limits and the fines, but did not agree with your reasoning that speeding damaged seals. Okay, I shouldn't have mentioned dolphins, but I have just received an email from a friend who is into marine biology.

He says, "I cannot find any research evidence that seal populations are adversely affected by ship's propellors..."

I didn't ask him about dolphins, but I would assume that more dolphins are injured by frollicking close to slow moving MOBO's that a monster at 25 knots on the plane.
 
Ok - conceeded - I shouldn't have mentioned props damaging seals as it is only a belief that they could be rather than hard evidence that they are - the point being is that Chi Harbour is a beautiful harbour with more than just humans inhabiting it - IMHO speeding fines should take into the detrimental effect to the whole area rather than just the safety aspect.
 
Both vessels were caught doing over 3 times the limit - if you were caught speeding in your car doing 90Mph+ in a 30 limit you would loose your licence for a period of time and have a fine. The exact length of time and level of fine would depend on individual circumstances.
 
[ QUOTE ]
How fast were these boats going and what was the speed limit ?. In any case the costs seem a lor higher than motoring convictions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Details here
 
...and the Menai Strait is a special conservation area as well, but in the entire area there are only two speed limits, the immediate area off Port Dinorwic, which is there only because the bend in the Strait causes a 'hazard to navigation', although it has a secondary benefit in that it protects the moorings from excessive wash, which is now the real reason the speed limit is maintained since commercial shipping has all but disappeared, and the other speed limit is 5 knots in the fairway channel if you want to enter Caernarfon harbour, yet in the main channel, there is no speed limit.

It is right that speed limits are there for a reason and limited to the places they are really needed and not applied as a blanket solution to a perceived problem.

The Menai Straight is home to one of the country's foremost watersports facilities, Plas Menai, which is just outside the 5 Knot speed limit off Port Dinorwic. I questioned this and was told that they preferred their students to do their training in 'real' conditions and not on some artificially created mill pond, so have not asked for the speed limit to be extended.

Reading up on Chi Harbour, I think they should pay a visit to the Menai Strait and try to understand that there must be a good reason to impose speed limits in selective areas, rather than create a mill pond just for the sake of it.
 
Having lived in Port Dinorwic for a year I do have a little knowledge of the area .... and it is not the same as Chi harbour as it is not enclosed..... I don't know why it is specifically 8 knots though.

Direct from the conservancy website:
[ QUOTE ]
Why the Harbour is Important

Recreation and leisure:
The sheltered waters of the harbour are ideal for racing and day sailing and its channels offer secure moorings for cruising vessels. Over 10,000 craft use the harbour and there are some 5,500 moorings and 14 sailing clubs with over 11,000 members. Other popular activities include angling, birdwatching, walking, wildfowling, painting and photography.

Landscape:
The landscape of Chichester Harbour was formally recognised as being of national importance in 1964 when it was designated an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty (AONB).

Nature Conservation:
The harbour is of national and international importance for nature conservation. It is a Site of Special Scientific Interest, a wetland of international importance, a Special Protection Area for wild birds and a candidate Special Area of Conservation. The Harbour is of particular significance for wintering wildfowl and waders of which 6 species reach numbers which are internationally important.

Economic:
The Harbour and its surroundings are commercially important for:

* Farming - the farmland is of particularly high quality and agriculture is the main land use.
* Fishing - the Harbour has had an oyster fishery for centuries and local fishermen continue to earn their livings from and within the harbour.
* Boatyards - local businesses which build, repair and maintain vessels and provide moorings, chandlery and other services.
* Tourism - the recreational value of the Harbour is a vital factor in the local tourism industry.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is what the convervancy are trying to maintain - with harbour dues and bylaws as it's main tools for doing so.
 
Hang on, Hang on ... we've gone from "Disproportionate Harbour Speeding Fines?" to "Should there be a speed limit in Chichester Harbour?"

Make up your mind ...

It is quite simple - there IS a speed limit in many harbours and areas. Most of these have been there for many years and the vast majority of users abide by them. A couple of pillocks get caught and fined for excessive speeding and you're up in arms ...
 
Hi,

I think the current speed limit in Chi harbour is probably the right one. Although very large, the navigable channels aren't that wide, and in summer it gets v.crowded with a mix of mobos, sailyboats, dinghies, windsurfers etc. To have boats doing 25kts plus through all that lot probably isn't going to work that well.

I witnessed the speeding RIB incident: there was an "ooo, that's going to end in tears". In my opinion, not much sympathy, mainly cos he didn't look round ONCE the whole time (4-5 mins), so not only speeding, but totally failing to notice the Chi Hbr patrol following quite closely with a large blue light on top. It wasn't as if it was just a few seconds, it was about a mile or so from the Sailing Club to East Head.

The reference to Magnum is out of order: the circumstances were totally different. He capitulated and admitted "guilt" of not buttering up the local garda rather than face a legal system that was going to produce one result.

dv.
 
Think perhaps the real issue here is not so much the fine as the costs.

£500 fine is quite possible for speeding on the roads - depending upon disposable income and how far over the limit you are.

Also in road traffic cases you get points and can be disqualified - neither of which is available in these cases, so perhaps not too unreasonable to tag a bit on the fine to make up for it.

The big difference is in costs, normally a speed ing case with a guilty plea and a whinge, sorry, plea in mitigation will come out at £40 in costs, not £450.

I don't see why there should be a factor of 10 when comparing CPS costs with (presumably) local authority costs.

And I've seen more outrageous costs than these applied by local authorities!
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why there should be a factor of 10 when comparing CPS costs with (presumably) local authority costs.


[/ QUOTE ]

I believe it's already been pointed out that the Chicester Conservancy is not part of either central or local government.

Also, the number of prosecutions for speeding on the roads is far greater than those on water so the costs are spread over a larger number.
 
So if you want to see costs for fines brought down, get more ppl out there speeding ...
Supply and Demand ... /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top