boy boater
Active Member
Please could someone advise which gas or gases are emitted by a diesel engine whilst running? Thank you.
Diesel Engine Exhaust Gases
- Thread starter boy boater
- Start date
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Diesel exhaust
Are you referring to the ones that are measured or the ones nobody cares about?
Diesel exhaust is a very complex mixture of gases, vapor and fine particles (soot).
Water vapor and carbon dioxide are the major constituents of diesel exhaust emissions.
Gases such as carbon monoxide CO, nitrogen oxides NOx, and sulfur oxides; partly unburned carbon particles PM (soot); and hydrocarbons (very small quantities) and their derivatives are all found in diesel exhaust emissions
Are you referring to the ones that are measured or the ones nobody cares about?
Diesel exhaust is a very complex mixture of gases, vapor and fine particles (soot).
Water vapor and carbon dioxide are the major constituents of diesel exhaust emissions.
Gases such as carbon monoxide CO, nitrogen oxides NOx, and sulfur oxides; partly unburned carbon particles PM (soot); and hydrocarbons (very small quantities) and their derivatives are all found in diesel exhaust emissions
boy boater
Active Member
Behind my question was, should I get exhaust gases in the boat cabin, e.g. when the boat is moored with the engine running, could these gases prove harmful or even fatal? I have fitted a CO alarm. Is this sufficient?
tinkicker0
Well-Known Member
Diesel exhaust has known links to various cancers, but you gotta breathe a lot of em.
Mostly CO2, but some CO and particulate soot also depending on engine load and condition.
If you are getting these fumes into the cabin, they can collect in the hull and you can't breathe carbon dioxide, so yes they can be fatal.
Don't run an engine or gennie whilst asleep would be my advice, unless you are absolutely sure about the condition of your exhaust and wind direction.
boy boater
Active Member
In follow up to my original question, what gases exit a diesel fuelled heater, e.g. an eberspacher?
volvopaul
Well-Known Member
The same I would say as latestarter has, its the same fuel coming out the pipe in its burnt state.
As someone once pointed out to me in my college days, " for every gallon of fuel burnt you will get the same amount of water exited from the exhaust", its the fuel/ energy thats burnt that produces the power/= heat.
Im sure the biochemists will be along shortly to give us the mc=#/'][\ factors!
As someone once pointed out to me in my college days, " for every gallon of fuel burnt you will get the same amount of water exited from the exhaust", its the fuel/ energy thats burnt that produces the power/= heat.
Im sure the biochemists will be along shortly to give us the mc=#/'][\ factors!
GrahamHR
Well-Known Member
Most factories I have visited over the last 30 years or so prohibit the use of diesel powered forklifts indoors, due to the carcinogens in the exhaust gases. So, if a a heating system/ engine was letting diesel exhaust gases into the living accomodation of my boat, I'd not be very happy about it. ( much as it's very unpleasant to be behind a diesel powered car/van being driven hard, which most seem to be! )
Graham
Graham
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hlb
RIP
Yes but unlike petrol fumes, diesel fumes wont kill you, they might be unpleasant and you would not like to much. But unlike petrol fumes I've never heard of some one trying to commit suicide with them.
GrahamHR
Well-Known Member
Haydn,
I've never heard of anyone trying to commit suicide by inhaling petrol fumes ( diesel neither!).
Anyhow, the exhaust gases from a diesel engine and a petrol or LPG engine are largely the same; Carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides. (and of course water), Believe me, I'm a chemist!
Carbon dioxide; harmful by asphyxiation
Carbon monoxide: not very nice, bonds with haemoglobin preferentiallly compared to oxygen
Nitrogen oxides; mostly toxic
Diesel exhaust particulates; Some are well known Cacinogens
Petrol particulates? I have not seen them reported
You really need to cross a bridge over a dual carriageway to realise how smelly and so probably how unhealthy the exhaust fumes from a "modern" diesel engine are; older ones must be worse!
Graham
I've never heard of anyone trying to commit suicide by inhaling petrol fumes ( diesel neither!).
Anyhow, the exhaust gases from a diesel engine and a petrol or LPG engine are largely the same; Carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides. (and of course water), Believe me, I'm a chemist!
Carbon dioxide; harmful by asphyxiation
Carbon monoxide: not very nice, bonds with haemoglobin preferentiallly compared to oxygen
Nitrogen oxides; mostly toxic
Diesel exhaust particulates; Some are well known Cacinogens
Petrol particulates? I have not seen them reported
You really need to cross a bridge over a dual carriageway to realise how smelly and so probably how unhealthy the exhaust fumes from a "modern" diesel engine are; older ones must be worse!
Graham
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hlb
RIP
Graham.
There are loads of reports from people commiting suicied from people attaching a pipe from the tail pipe of a petrol engine, to the inside of the car, or simply sitting in the car with garage door closed. They just fall asleep then die. Gas trucks run round works all day, without any problem. I'm not saying any of it is good for you, only that with diesel, you'll get fed up of it before it kills you.
There are loads of reports from people commiting suicied from people attaching a pipe from the tail pipe of a petrol engine, to the inside of the car, or simply sitting in the car with garage door closed. They just fall asleep then die. Gas trucks run round works all day, without any problem. I'm not saying any of it is good for you, only that with diesel, you'll get fed up of it before it kills you.
Mistroma
Well-Known Member
Eberspacher exhaust
It burns diesel so will do doubt have usual mixture of particulates and gases. Long term exposure would be bad due to carcinogens present. However, you get many times the exhaust from your engine. Combustion characteristics are quiete different from a reciprocating engine but doubt you want to get to that level of complexity.
Main immediate worry would probably be Carbon Monoxide coming into the cabin. I can only think of 2 ways that will happen with the warm air models
1) Exhaust outlet close to air inlet
2) Leak in combustion chamber or gasket
First is pretty unlikely unless it was a very poorly installed system. Exhaust pipe usually goes well away from the intake. Just have a look to make certain you are happy with the setup.
I imagine second could happen in an old system if there's a pin-hole in the combustion chamber. Air is warmed by being blown over the outside finned surface of the combustion chamber. So you only get contamination via a hole or gap somwhere (corrosion or gasket).
I suspect you'd smell something odd due to combustion products in the warm air and hopefully your CO alarm would go off before there was a danger of passing out.
My guess (just an uneducated guess) is that the system would have to be in a pretty bad state before CO alarm tripped as system constantly pulls in fresh air when running. Of course small amounts of CO still aren't desireable.
I wonder if anyone has had experience of such a leak. I did think it happened to me once but problem wasn't with the heater at all.
It burns diesel so will do doubt have usual mixture of particulates and gases. Long term exposure would be bad due to carcinogens present. However, you get many times the exhaust from your engine. Combustion characteristics are quiete different from a reciprocating engine but doubt you want to get to that level of complexity.
Main immediate worry would probably be Carbon Monoxide coming into the cabin. I can only think of 2 ways that will happen with the warm air models
1) Exhaust outlet close to air inlet
2) Leak in combustion chamber or gasket
First is pretty unlikely unless it was a very poorly installed system. Exhaust pipe usually goes well away from the intake. Just have a look to make certain you are happy with the setup.
I imagine second could happen in an old system if there's a pin-hole in the combustion chamber. Air is warmed by being blown over the outside finned surface of the combustion chamber. So you only get contamination via a hole or gap somwhere (corrosion or gasket).
I suspect you'd smell something odd due to combustion products in the warm air and hopefully your CO alarm would go off before there was a danger of passing out.
My guess (just an uneducated guess) is that the system would have to be in a pretty bad state before CO alarm tripped as system constantly pulls in fresh air when running. Of course small amounts of CO still aren't desireable.
I wonder if anyone has had experience of such a leak. I did think it happened to me once but problem wasn't with the heater at all.
misterg
Well-Known Member
I think someone posted on here a while ago about a fender obstructing the exhaust from a diesel heater and them getting very badly affected by the gasses in the boat.
There's a difference between a diesel heater and a diesel engine:
The heater will be burning diesel as efficiently as possible, so will be running at ~15:1 air: diesel and using up most of the oxygen in the air - probably down to ~4% oxygen coming out compared to ~20% in the air going in. If the air supply is restricted at all, the amount of carbon monoxide in the exhaust will increase rapidly. The restriction can be in the exhaust or the inlet (or by exhaust gasses being recirculated as said above).
A diesel engine under no load will be running at (say) 75:1 air:diesel, and using up very little of the oxygen in the air coming in, so you have to do something really drastic to get much carbon monoxide in the exhaust. There's probably almost enough oxygen in the exhaust of an unloaded diesel engine to make it breathable (about 18%, but don't try this at home
). At full load, a diesel engine will be running at ~15:1.Petrol engines, lpg engines & gas heaters will be running at about stochiometric ratio (just enough air for the petrol or gas being burnt) so produce more carbon monoxide in their exhausts to start with and need little to go wrong for them to produce lots of carbon monoxide.
A carbon monoxide alarm is a useful back-stop, and exhaust gasses leaking into the boat are always a Bad Thing, but if it's just exhaust gasses drifting back in after being discharged from the exhaust, then it may be unpleasant, but I don't think theres a serious health risk.
0.02p
Andy
tinkicker0
Well-Known Member
Rest assured Diesel Exhaust can kill. It's not as potent as petrol exhaust for sure, but it is capable of killing.
Therefore only one acceptable stance can be taken on this topic - Worst case scenario.
I do not want someones death on my hands by pontificating the ins and outs of the hazard when none of us apart from the OP know the exact circumstances.
Therefore: BoyBoater, yes diesel exhaust can easily kill you. It is heavier than air, your hull is sealed and therefore it could form a pool of unbreatheable gas in the hull while you sleep. If your head is below this pool, you will die. Period.
Worst case scenario.
Therefore only one acceptable stance can be taken on this topic - Worst case scenario.
I do not want someones death on my hands by pontificating the ins and outs of the hazard when none of us apart from the OP know the exact circumstances.
Therefore: BoyBoater, yes diesel exhaust can easily kill you. It is heavier than air, your hull is sealed and therefore it could form a pool of unbreatheable gas in the hull while you sleep. If your head is below this pool, you will die. Period.
Worst case scenario.
boy boater
Active Member
Some most interesting and informed information, thank you all for that.
ulyden
Well-Known Member
Diesel emissions
A normal diesel engine at 50% or hier load have quite common emissions!
Most of it is
N2 nitrogen approx 75%
O2 is Oxygen approx 9-12%
H2O Water steam approx 4-6%
CO2 Carbondioxside 5-7% Greenhouse gas
CO Carbon monoxside approx 0.01%
NOx Nitrogenoxides approx 0.05-0.2%
THC total hydrocarbons 0.01-0.1% (Unburned fuel)
Partikles less than 0.5g/kwh
A normal diesel engine at 50% or hier load have quite common emissions!
Most of it is
N2 nitrogen approx 75%
O2 is Oxygen approx 9-12%
H2O Water steam approx 4-6%
CO2 Carbondioxside 5-7% Greenhouse gas
CO Carbon monoxside approx 0.01%
NOx Nitrogenoxides approx 0.05-0.2%
THC total hydrocarbons 0.01-0.1% (Unburned fuel)
Partikles less than 0.5g/kwh
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GrahamHR
Well-Known Member
An accumulation of the exhaust gases from all internal combustion engines can kill you, unless you are using pure hydrogen as the fuel ( in which the exhaust gas is largely water vapour). I must admit I wouldn't be very happy carrying cylinders of compressed hydrogen ( or any flammable gas) on my boat.
CO (excludes oxygen from being absorbed by haemoglobin)
CO2 ( can affect the breathing reflex)
NOx ( oxides of nitrogen, very many of them toxic)
Diesel articulates; long term carcinogens
Probably some sulphur oxides, but rare in clean fuels.
Forklift trucks in factories use LPG because it is cheaper that petrol and diesel, not because it is safer ( no road tax duty).
CO (excludes oxygen from being absorbed by haemoglobin)
CO2 ( can affect the breathing reflex)
NOx ( oxides of nitrogen, very many of them toxic)
Diesel articulates; long term carcinogens
Probably some sulphur oxides, but rare in clean fuels.
Forklift trucks in factories use LPG because it is cheaper that petrol and diesel, not because it is safer ( no road tax duty).
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stefan_r
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Definitely not good....there was a news article about a year (or maybe more) ago about some people who died because they rafted up and the boat next them had a heater whose exhaust was pumping, unfortunately, directly into their cabin through window or something...
Just tried to find the original news item on YBW.com...there doesn't seem to be a search function...
John100156
Well-Known Member
You should find the following link to the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) website informative:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg286.htm
The HSE also suggest maximum recommended CO2 and CO exposure limits as follows:
CO2: 5000ppm for 8Hr exposure and 15000ppm for 15min exposure (CO2 in the atmosphere ranges between 375 and 400ppm).
CO is seen as much more hazardous for many of the reasons stated above:
CO: 30ppm for 8Hr exposure - no limit givin for 15min.
Here is how you might feel if you breathe-in too much:
Marsupial
Well-Known Member
IT WILL KILL YOU
If you dont die of asphyxiation you run the long term risk of cancer
misterg
Well-Known Member
Some interesting reading:
CO poisoning on Targa 28 (petrol engines / diesel heater)
Carbon Monoxide Advice (don't be put off by it being of US origin).
From which, I have taken the following (note the bit in bold which was something I didn't previously know - although the CO in diesel exhast is << that in petrol):
CO alarm sounds like a good idea, but plenty of other stuff to get right first.
Edit to add: That second link also includes tests of CO exposure when wake surfing (OK) and "teak surfing"(not OK) behind a petrol boat (I'd never heard of "teak surfing" - it's body dragging off the bathing platform...)
Andy
CO poisoning on Targa 28 (petrol engines / diesel heater)
Carbon Monoxide Advice (don't be put off by it being of US origin).
From which, I have taken the following (note the bit in bold which was something I didn't previously know - although the CO in diesel exhast is << that in petrol):
CO alarm sounds like a good idea, but plenty of other stuff to get right first.
Edit to add: That second link also includes tests of CO exposure when wake surfing (OK) and "teak surfing"(not OK) behind a petrol boat (I'd never heard of "teak surfing" - it's body dragging off the bathing platform...)
Andy
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