DEPOSIT PROTECTION

Marbella Malcom

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Has anyone experienced this......Up until yesterday I agreed to purchase a new Princess V50 and a deposit of £250k was requested and a stage payment of £300k in August with completion and delivery in February. As it’s a lot of money I requested either the funds in escrow or a bank guarantee as clearly until completion I would have no security. This was steadfastly refused? Was I being unreasonable?
 
You are not being unreasonable, but the builder needs your money to finance his working capital, including building your boat. Very few builders are in a sufficiently strong financial position to be able to offer bank guarantees (they are financed by their bank so become part of the credit facility with the bank).

A compromise that some builders offer is a contract where title to the part complete boat passes to the buyer in line with the stage payments. This way you own the part complete boat. Often linked to engaging a surveyor to authorise the stage payment based on an inspection of work carried out to date. Princess have a history of not going bust (unlike some other builders) and probably believe that their financial situation is sufficiently strong to pass due diligence and therefore no need to offer any security to buyers.

If it helps I have been in exactly the same situation with another builder, although not quite such huge sums (total over £100k) and the timescale was shorter at 4 months from deposit to completion and it all went smoothly.

At the end of the day only you can assess the risk and decide whether you are prepared to take it as realistically you cannot insure against the risk.
 
In 1980 Moonraker Yachts (Colin Chapman of Lotus) went into liquidation and many people who had paid stage payments found that their boats which they had partly paid for then belonged to the Liquidator.
Around the same sort of time International Marine in Manchester went into liquidation.
There have been other liquidations since, one was a famous one at Chichester where it was shown that they had been spending deposit money.
And I always remember a problem I had with a Princess Dealer, I wanted a new Princess 33. They showed me a "New" one which was in the water at one of their other marinas. I said I did not want that one, It had a bathing platform which they wanted to charge me £130 pound extra. it was agreed that I could have the next unsold one which came out of the factory. Three months later they said my boat had arrived.
It turned out that instead of ordering a brand new boat, they removed the Bathing Platform of the one I rejected, filled the holes in the gel coat and cleaned the hull.
It was only because on its first trip one of the two gearboxes failed and I found out that the date of build was 9 months before.
I rejected it and got a refund.
I believe it was shortage of money which made them try and sell me one they had in stock rather than order a new one. At that time £35,000 could have bought 2 detached houses where I lived.

I wish I had bought the houses and a cheaper boat.
I always remember the Moonraker fiasco, as I read that there was a boat owner who had a virtually finished boat when the went into liquidation.
Apparently he turned up during the night with a Low Loader, Cut the padlock off, loaded the boat and drove off with it. Probably had help with working the crane as probably by then he would have known the Moonraker staff.
 
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I understand OP concern. It is a lot of money. On the other hand it has always been normal to pay for a large build in stages. Albeit pay when first stage is complete.
Now for a house here in west oz you pay for an insurance against the builder going broke. Managed by the housing industry. Now actually in the case of a house you (or bank) hold the title deed to the land so liquidators can not just take away what you have paid for as is the case with a boat.
Op concern deserves more research. Surely this is not a new problem. Although I don't imagine many new boat builds of that value. Obviously the builder would need stage payments to pay for what has been done. He can't risk you going broke and reneging on the purchase. But you need some sort of title over what you have paid for to keep it out of the hands of liquidators. ol'will
 
Problem being that a part complete boat is a liability not an asset.
Not necessarily - it just changes the nature of the problem which becomes how to get it finished. In recent crashes where boats were covered by this sort of contract they were completed by either the administrator or the successor who picked up the pieces.
 
Has anyone experienced this......Up until yesterday I agreed to purchase a new Princess V50 and a deposit of £250k was requested and a stage payment of £300k in August with completion and delivery in February. As it’s a lot of money I requested either the funds in escrow or a bank guarantee as clearly until completion I would have no security. This was steadfastly refused? Was I being unreasonable?
You were being very reasonable, but the company may not be in a position to give you any security over their work in hand or to park your money in an account with your name on it.

Ultimately if the company really needs and or wants the business sufficiently they will probably come to some sort of an arrangement to reassure you.

The catch 22 position is that if they shift their position it may indicate that they really need the money and at that stage do you want to take the chance...

I would want to have a first charge on the part completed boat to the value of monies paid and maybe smaller increments...

You may need to show them that you have the money on hand and set aside subject to progressing the build...(like stage payments in a traditional house building contract)

Insurance maybe an option but is that type of insurance available...will they cover a figure that size for a potential total loss without asking for a testicle and the price of several small yachts....
 
You were being very reasonable, but the company may not be in a position to give you any security over their work in hand or to park your money in an account with your name on it.

Ultimately if the company really needs and or wants the business sufficiently they will probably come to some sort of an arrangement to reassure you.

The catch 22 position is that if they shift their position it may indicate that they really need the money and at that stage do you want to take the chance...

I would want to have a first charge on the part completed boat to the value of monies paid and maybe smaller increments...

You may need to show them that you have the money on hand and set aside subject to progressing the build...(like stage payments in a traditional house building contract)

Insurance maybe an option but is that type of insurance available...will they cover a figure that size for a potential total loss without asking for a testicle and the price of several small yachts....
You will only know if you ask.
 
Seek insurance for your deposits. If the builder is not accepted for cover by the insurance company you then know why and can make an informed decision.
That is what a bank guarantee is. Not aware of any independent insurance policy for deposits with boat builders, for exactly the same reason bank guarantees are difficult - too risky or impossible to assess the risk. Most insurance policies for deposits are through trade associations (think building, double glazing etc) are organised and premiums are paid by members. No such scheme exists for boat builders because the number of builders is small, the collective risk of failure is small so there is not a large base over which to spread the risk - the fundamental principle of insurance.

Therefore up to the individual to carry out due diligence and make his own assessment of whether he is prepared to take the risk. Clearly a lot of people are as the builder in question has been in business continuously for nearly 50 years and has a 2 year order book.
 
This sort of insurance may be available...I have always believed that there are specialist insurers who will cover anything...if you can find one...
Advanced payment protection for businesses | Allianz Trade

I realise it is for people in trade but the concept is the same and a broker who deals with that type may we'll be able to get the more appropriate version.
It works in situations like that because there is data that allows insurers to calculate the risk. This is simply not available for buying boats where there are so few boats bought and so few failures.
 
.... a contract where title to the part complete boat passes to the buyer in line with the stage payments. This way you own the part complete boat. Often linked to engaging a surveyor to authorise the stage payment based on an inspection of work carried out to date.
I understood that this was standard practice (though I can't remember where I read it) otherwise you could find yourself in the situation that the firm went bust on handover day, and the administrator would sell the boat that you financed but have no rights over? Just because a company hasn't gone bust before is no guarantee in volatile times.
I'd be getting specialist legal advice before I started doling out vast sums of cash.
 
Has anyone experienced this......Up until yesterday I agreed to purchase a new Princess V50 and a deposit of £250k was requested and a stage payment of £300k in August with completion and delivery in February. As it’s a lot of money I requested either the funds in escrow or a bank guarantee as clearly until completion I would have no security. This was steadfastly refused? Was I being unreasonable?
I assume you mean Princess Yachts of Plymouth.

Have you done any due diligence on the company? You need to satisfy yourself that they are not going to go out of business.

I have no idea of the percentage they are asking for, Princess Yachts are way out of my league, but quite a normal business practice on high value projects.

The finish many of their boats off in King Point marina in Plymouth where I used to keep my very modest sailing boat and there was always a constant stream of vessels coming through the marina.
 
It works in situations like that because there is data that allows insurers to calculate the risk. This is simply not available for buying boats where there are so few boats bought and so few failures.

Before ordering the new boat I am buying I looked into this and couldn't find anything. Staged payment and ownership of what's done so far is the best that is possible. Given the big order backlog the builder has is some comfort that they are not going to go bust from lack of orders. The problem they have right now is not lack of orders but that they can't get stuff, and they can't get staff.
 
I understood that this was standard practice (though I can't remember where I read it) otherwise you could find yourself in the situation that the firm went bust on handover day, and the administrator would sell the boat that you financed but have no rights over? Just because a company hasn't gone bust before is no guarantee in volatile times.
I'd be getting specialist legal advice before I started doling out vast sums of cash.
Only if the contract says so. I don't know what form of contract Princess uses, but from what the OP says suggests the payments are unsecured. I used to work for a semi custom builder of powerboats, many for the commercial and export market and most were sold under a contract where title passed in stages, although my boss would always like to avoid that for private buyers!

"Legal" advice would not add much, except perhaps for a second opinion on the proposed contract.

When I bought my last new boat it was through a dealer (as is common these days) and my stage payments were passed on directly to the builder in Germany. However the risk for me was small(ish) because a substantial part of the total price was the trade in of my existing boat. The final payment and transfer of old boat was made when the boat was complete and all documents available. BoS (for both boats) was executed at the same time. Then the only money at risk was the commissioning costs. Pleased to say everything went smoothly - and that is most new boat buyers experience. The number who actually lose out in failures of builders is extremely small, but of course very visible and that colours peoples views on the subject - you don't see the 99% where there are no problems. Does not mean to say that there are never problems, but when you get into buying a new boat you get to know what feels right and make your own judgement. Having been on both sides I would be wary of low volume semi custom builders with a history of instability - Princess does not fall into this category.
 
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