Demand for moorings plummeting?

[TSB240]

Pwllheli is wholly owned by the local council....

This money grabbing local authority takes all the revenue from the Marina and never re-invest any significant proportion in improvements for the berth holders. The shore-side facilities and dredging were always improved by occasional capital grants not by the very large income generated by the marina berth holders.
The large profits went into the local pot and supported the wider community other than the marina,developing marine industry and employment.
Not exactly a good business model for a modern well run marina.

The same authority operate Caernarfon Harbour. Caernarfon has seen a massive drop in visitor numbers as no maintenance dredging has been done since the capital expenditure to double the berthing quite a few years ago.... Local council run marinas persist in milking the berth holders and visitors, no re-investment, no job generation and offering less and less to visitors who are hard to come by.

I know I would want something special to divert me for a stay at either Pwlllheli or Caernarfon rather than use the more welcoming ports on the sheltered eastern Irish coast!

The contrast with France and Brittany is spectacular. Here the councils pay for the infrastructure, ensure its up keep and enjoy the increased income generated by the local shops, restaurants, and business from visitors that increase the turnover and pay the local taxes and create permanent jobs for the local people.

I don't object to people owning boats and keeping them in a marina and rarely using them outside it. This is very much a feature of virtually any North West Marina! I just think the local council have badly operated a superb facility for a number of years. Furthermore they have missed a massive golden opportunity as a large part of Pwllheli harbour still remains wide open for providing a fantastiuc "half tide floating village" They could install dutch style barge mounted floating homes with fantastic views and it could be fully integrated with the main town.

But of course these homes would be all be taken up by non welsh speaking people! There is another can of worms to open.

 

[westhinder]

I'd also like to know what Sport England are up to by funding angling with our money. Sat on your rear for hours on end a sport? Maybe it is a sport if it is competitive?

Sat on your rear for hours on end... does that not apply to most forms of sailing? ?

 

[Daydream believer]

The large profits went into the local pot and supported the wider community other than the marina,developing marine industry and employment.

The use of property belongs to the community at large. Not to a few wealthy boat owners ( although they might consider themselves due a miniscule share) so the community is entitled to use the money for other services which- if you are honest - are needed far more than a few marina berths for monied people , possibly from outside the community. Talk of wild schemes for Dutch style development would require capital & resource input that the local authority probably does not have. It would probably be occupied by the wealthy & once developed is removed from the use by the less affluent for ever. they would never be able to have the use if some time in the future some capital grant did become available. People forget that once a development takes place for the wealthy it can no longer be used by the poor- until it becomes so run down that the rich discard it & the poor get the dross.

 

[Zing]

Sat on your rear for hours on end... does that not apply to most forms of sailing? ��

If you are going to be like that then athletics and cricket too.

 

[RobbieW]

Interesting to see the 10 year changes in the Sport England report..... Mountaineering up 50% ...

Out of curiosity, do you think thats mountaineering outdoors on big hills or bouldering on a wall in a sports centre ? Not that I'm saying the level of fitness is any less, just questioning definitions

 

[Zing]

Out of curiosity, do you think thats mountaineering outdoors on big hills or bouldering on a wall in a sports centre ? Not that I'm saying the level of fitness is any less, just questioning definitions

I don’t know. exactly They will publish their definitions of course. Mountaineering does inviolve rock climbing. It is not hill walking. That is something I do a lot and the numbers are a lot higher for that. It has also grown as an activity in popularity to the point of unpleasantness sometimes. It’s not a sport, though and that’s a funny thing as compared to watching a fish float bob about for hours it is a lot more sporty.

 

[Daydream believer]

. It’s not a sport, though and that’s a funny thing as compared to watching a fish float bob about for hours it is a lot more sporty.

Fly fishermen do not "watch a fish float bob about" & come to that neither do a lot of sea anglers or coarse fishermen.
For many years fishing was one of the largest participant activity of all hobbies in the UK ( more so than football at one time I am told) so it must have had some interest within the community.
Competitive angling in the fishing world was very big in all parts of the country, particularly in the midlands; with money changing hands. When I fished regularly there were a number of professional anglers in the UK who performed well on the world stage.
So although ysome may not understand the sport perhaps they should accept that many enjoy it & look forward to it as much as they do, laying under a boat scrapping barnacles off, or drifting aimlessly up a muddy creek in the cold pouring rain

 

[rotrax]

First mate got into a big-at least 1.5 metres across-Stingray off Gisborne Wharf a week or so ago.

She was on a light rod trying to catch dinner.

It gave her a real workout for 30 minutes before the line broke. Her shoulders, thighs, arms and back were quite sore the next day.

Angling can be far from a sedentary sport...................................

 

[doris]

The use of property belongs to the community at large. Not to a few wealthy boat owners ( although they might consider themselves due a miniscule share) so the community is entitled to use the money for other services which- if you are honest - are needed far more than a few marina berths for monied people , possibly from outside the community. Talk of wild schemes for Dutch style development would require capital & resource input that the local authority probably does not have. It would probably be occupied by the wealthy & once developed is removed from the use by the less affluent for ever. they would never be able to have the use if some time in the future some capital grant did become available. People forget that once a development takes place for the wealthy it can no longer be used by the poor- until it becomes so run down that the rich discard it & the poor get the dross.

Gosh, I'm not surprised your wife doesn't understand you. That's an extraordinary short term approach, very worthy of Messrs Corbyn and Alexander.
The poor will suffer hugely when the assets run out and don't forget, the poor are always with us, the rich just go elsewhere.

 

[Daydream believer]

The poor will suffer hugely when the assets run out and don't forget, the poor are always with us, the rich just go elsewhere.

That is correct. The poorer section of the community suffer & the wealthy sector just move on leaving their dross for the community to pick up.
Not really what we want - or is it.

 

[doris]

That is correct. The poorer section of the community suffer & the wealthy sector just move on leaving their dross for the community to pick up.
Not really what we want - or is it.

That's why you use revenue to maintain the assets. When the better off are in town they put resources into the local economy and the poor benefit, unless you fancy a Venezuela/ style economy. Maybe you still read your little Red Book. Remember that is the way to massive poverty and gross corruption.

 

[jac]

That is correct. The poorer section of the community suffer & the wealthy sector just move on leaving their dross for the community to pick up.
Not really what we want - or is it.

Indeed it's not.

What we want are for the wealthy to come in ever greater numbers, paying large amounts of money and providing tax revenue and employment opportunities.

That means maintaining the facilities ( and improving them from time to time) and then taking off a sustainable profit ( if council owned) or tax if private sector.

The issue if public sector owned is that investment decisions get weighed alongside things like social care for spend. Even though the investment might have an economic benefit SOME politicians will be unwilling to divert anything short term for longer term benefit especially if it's "pandering to the rich"

 

[Daydream believer]

That's why you use revenue to maintain the assets. When the better off are in town they put resources into the local economy and the poor benefit, unless you fancy a Venezuela/ style economy. Maybe you still read your little Red Book. Remember that is the way to massive poverty and gross corruption.

Yes when they are in town, I agree. But most of the time they are not. Just buy a holiday home ;use it 6 weeks of the year. Shut the doors all winter. Then the local shops have no trade . local communities loose their trade , small shops shut, pubs shut because locals driven out by prices. The wealthy only turn up when it is hot. When they do come they bring their goods from their own local supermarket with them. If they eat out it is in the more expensive restaurant.

Yes, we all know how communities benefit from the present from the influx off the wealthy.
Resources?
Of course the revenue that should be put into care etc can be used to make things look "nice" for the wealthy when they " deem" to turn up & complain about the homeless down the road. On the way to their MOBO in the state sponsored cheap marina that some seem to advocate.

 

[maby]

Yes when they are in town, I agree. But most of the time they are not. Just buy a holiday home ;use it 6 weeks of the year. Shut the doors all winter. Then the local shops have no trade . local communities loose their trade , small shops shut, pubs shut because locals driven out by prices. The wealthy only turn up when it is hot. When they do come they bring their goods from their own local supermarket with them. If they eat out it is in the more expensive restaurant.

Yes, we all know how communities benefit from the present from the influx off the wealthy.
Resources?
Of course the revenue that should be put into care etc can be used to make things look "nice" for the wealthy when they " deem" to turn up & complain about the homeless down the road. On the way to their MOBO in the state sponsored cheap marina that some seem to advocate.

I'm not enthusiastic about holiday homes - they do drive up property prices for the local young. Marinas are a bit different - they are not taking away property that locals would buy and I've never seen any evidence of state subsidy. The worst you can accuse them of is filling up an otherwise picturesque bay with plastic gin palaces.

 

[Daydream believer]

I'm not enthusiastic about holiday homes - they do drive up property prices for the local young. Marinas are a bit different - they are not taking away property that locals would buy and I've never seen any evidence of state subsidy. The worst you can accuse them of is filling up an otherwise picturesque bay with plastic gin palaces.

I believe that TSB240 was suggesting in #261 that the authority should be involved in a Dutch style floating village within the curtilage of the marina &the thread in general complained about the lack of LA investment in a couple of marinas. Not the sort of first use of resource that those in need might appreciate. That was what started me off on my rants.

 

[maby]

I believe that TSB240 was suggesting in #261 that the authority should be involved in a Dutch style floating village within the curtilage of the marina &the thread in general complained about the lack of LA investment in a couple of marinas. Not the sort of first use of resource that those in need might appreciate. That was what started me off on my rants.

OK - I didn't pay enough attention to that part of the discussion. We are Solent marina dwellers - certainly no local authority investment in the Hamble marinas! There is housing included in the marina villages like Hythe and Port Solent, but I don't think that has any noticeable effect on the rest of the local housing market.

 

[Daydream believer]

I could be accused of double standards. In another post a forumite complained about Eastbourne marina being enclosed with expensive flats whose cost was beyond that of the poorer section of the community. However, unlike a social development, this was ( as far as I am aware) totally privately funded & would never have been built without private initiative. The person in that thread complained that the place was soulless ( agreed) & that was beginning to look run down ( no idea as not been back since). He was really more concerned that he could not afford one. He then went on the berate owners of large expensive yachts.
As far as I am concerned , if one can afford a yacht then have one. What is wrong though is allowing private funding to build in such a way that in a few years these " trendy" constructions soon become an eyesore for the community at large. Furthermore there is little allowance for funding the upkeep of the surrounding neighbourhood. That is often being lumbered on the LA whose dwindling resources lead to the inevitable.
The wealthy move on & in 40 years what are we to be left with? One can look all round parts of the east of London & whole streets can be refurbished & can be made to look quite tidy. mainly because they are individual or relatively small occupancy. Can one imagine that with some of the modern blocks being presented to us today. All privately owned & limited state interest.
How will Eastbourne marina look? The marina may look Ok but what about the scenery nearby?

 

[TSB240]

That's why you use revenue to maintain the assets. When the better off are in town they put resources into the local economy and the poor benefit, unless you fancy a Venezuela/ style economy. Maybe you still read your little Red Book. Remember that is the way to massive poverty and gross corruption.

Exactly the point. This council has neglected the maintenance of the Marina. It always relies on capital injection to maintain the Marina Depth and channel approach. The latest development funded this "maintenance dredging". Local business were up in arms about the delay in expenditure and emphasised that they were losing business as visiting yachts were no longer coming. Also the long standing waiting list for berths disappeared overnight!


This pattern of neglecting to use income revenue for maintenance dredging is now being repeated at Caernarfon . Which now has a major silting problem. Many deeper keeled boats are only able to access their mud hole berths at or close to high water. The access to the visitors pontoon is very shallow and has resulted in many larger visitors with larger spending crews giving up visiting Victoria dock.

The oldest yacht club in Wales has noticed a large decline in boating visitors. Income is probably down for not only the club but local businesses, Pubs, Restaurants, Cafes as well as the Marina. I expect an exodus of berth holders if the council continues the pattern of minimal expenditure of revenue on basic facility maintenance.

 

[Seajet]

TSB240,

would a marina residents association ( if there isn't one, set one up ) tolerate an increase in fees if it could be promised - unlikely word with a council I know - the extra dosh WOULD go into maintenance ?

I'm thinking of something reasonable like 10 %, though I don't know what your fees are.

Just struck me as an interesting hypothesis.

 

[jac]

Exactly the point. This council has neglected the maintenance of the Marina. It always relies on capital injection to maintain the Marina Depth and channel approach. The latest development funded this "maintenance dredging". Local business were up in arms about the delay in expenditure and emphasised that they were losing business as visiting yachts were no longer coming. Also the long standing waiting list for berths disappeared overnight!


This pattern of neglecting to use income revenue for maintenance dredging is now being repeated at Caernarfon . Which now has a major silting problem. Many deeper keeled boats are only able to access their mud hole berths at or close to high water. The access to the visitors pontoon is very shallow and has resulted in many larger visitors with larger spending crews giving up visiting Victoria dock.

The oldest yacht club in Wales has noticed a large decline in boating visitors. Income is probably down for not only the club but local businesses, Pubs, Restaurants, Cafes as well as the Marina. I expect an exodus of berth holders if the council continues the pattern of minimal expenditure of revenue on basic facility maintenance.

This is almost a perfect example of why the state shouldn't run some industries. The politicians if having to make a decision between more money on their pet priority or keeping a cash cow alive by retaining some investment in it will starve the cash cow of the maintenance on the emotive lines of "Putting the vulnerable first." That way they might be re-elected. Keeping the cash cow going longer term does not register on their radar - at least with professional managers in charge of the whole thing, their own future is linked to the cash cow still being around so they may take a longer term view even if the city sometimes doesn't.