Deliveries and Insurance

[steveej]

Morning......I have what I hope is a fairly straightforward question which I think I know the answer to but would like to check with the forum.

If you are helping deliver a Yacht from overseas as crew and hold a commercial endorsement (but are not the skipper), what sort of insurance is required? Holiday insurance or Extreme sports holiday insurance to cover yourself. What about professional liability insurance. Or do people just go without?

I do not believe the coast guard charge for rescues but I am sure every country is different so I guess extreme sports cover should be a minimum but what about professional liability?

 

[Tranona]

You can insure yourself personally for rescue and medical using a specialist policy from somebody like Topsail or Bishop Skinner. There is no compulsion to have either that or professional liability insurance. The latter would be a personal choice, but if you are only a crew it is difficult to see what you would be liable for. On the other hand if you were considering regular work as a skipper you might want to have it. Doubt it would be particularly expensive as it is a low risk activity.

Makes sense to ensure the owner has adequate insurance for the boat during its delivery. When I employed a skipper and one crew (I was also on board) for a long distance delivery passage, I submitted their details and our outline passage plan to my insurer who then quoted the surcharge and confirmed cover in a letter.

 

[Uricanejack]

I friend and I organized a commercial delivery last year. In that case. The owners insurance cover was used and was included in the contract. The skipper was a paid contractor. The owners son was crew.
The complexity of employment cover will vary
with jurisdiction. In this case the insurance company was advised and approved the plan.
so there should not be any problems.
Even so I would still pay the small fee to get get cover.
I would also suggest the owner or the contractor should have specific insurance to cover work. A contractor should have thier own cover. Small one man operators usually don’t unless it’s a full time business. Which leaves the person hiring them as an employer. The cover is quite cheep.

I you are traveling outside the uk. I would sugest travel insurance. And tell them what you are doing not all travel insurance policies cover sports activities. Usually things like skiing and diving are problematic.

You should be covered by the boats insurance for injury while on board. If the boats not insured skip the trip.

 

[Tranona]

I you are traveling outside the uk. I would sugest travel insurance. And tell them what you are doing not all travel insurance policies cover sports activities. Usually things like skiing and diving are problematic.

You should be covered by the boats insurance for injury while on board. If the boats not insured skip the trip.

Travel insurance would not cover this. It is normally only valid for conventional travel starting in the UK. That is why specialist sailing insurance is available as I suggested. The boat insurance only gives limited cover and does not cover for example voluntary evacuation or any subsequent medical costs. Cover for crew is also limited and will vary from policy to policy. professional liability is only worth having if you believe you are at risk through your own actions or inactions such that would cause the owner to claim against you. Third party liabilities are already covered by the boat's insurance.

For me, if the passage was in European waters and I was an EU citizen, I would not bother with insurance. If the passage is outside the EU I would insure myself for medical emergencies.

 

[Uricanejack]

Hmm I think we are agreeing about the travel insurance.
The liability should be ok with the boat cover If you are crew. The skippers liabilities may vary with the contract. I the delivery my friend organized we confirmed the boats insurance covered the liability for the skipper. We also confirmed WCB cover. WCB is Unique to BC it’s worker compensation for work related injury. It’s not very expensive but most standard policies don’t cover worker compensation here. Most contractors have thier own particularly if they have employees.
Hiring someone is hiring an employee. Or hiring a contractor.
The important point for us was getting this right. Since the skipper was just a guy we knew who was available. Therefore we had to make sure he was properly covered as an employee.
It is quite cheep I think only about 50 bucks to get covered here. The cost of not having cover if a you pay a guy you know and he gets hurt could potentially banckrupt us.

Uk law round employee insurance may be and probably is quite different. It might be covered in a standard British boat insurance policy. It’s not here.

As for the part time Delivery business idea. I decided it was getting to complicated and we weren’t asking enough.
So I opted out. My friend bid and got the contract. Timing didn’t work for other of us. So he pId s pal. Who enjoyed the trip.
The owner got thier boat moved cheep and cheerfully went away happy. The skipper wants to do it again and my pal figured it wasn’t worth the bother so we have given up.

The big thing is the guy you know a contractor? If so no problem. If not you best hope nobody gets hurt.

Or in this case a guy contemplating how he is covered if he crews on a delivery.
It’s worth asking.
Am I covered for an injury. The
Which is quite different from liability

 

[Tranona]

You are confusing the issues. The skipper and crew are self employed contractors so employment law does not apply. It is up to them to arrange their own insurance. The boat's insurance covers third party liability but will not cover any evacuation or medical costs, so these are two things that insurance might be considered for. Cover is relatively easy to obtain from specialists such as I mentioned. However much of this is available free by rescue services and the EHIC scheme for EU citizens. The exception would be voluntary evacuation and private medical treatment which would be covered by the typical sailor's policy.

The decision whether to insure or not is a personal one and really no different from the decision facing people cruising on their own boats except possibly that the risks might be greater if delivering a boat to a time schedule.

 

[Uricanejack]

I think you are probably have much more knowledge than I do about the sailing business, chartering, boat purchase and sales.
You definitely have more knowledge than I do about UK requirements. My knowledge is based on Canadian regulation and particularly BC.
What I referred to is BC Canadian law and May have no equivalent in UK. I would be surprised though if this is the case.
UK H&S is generally quite far ahead of and much more stringent than the Laws here.

I am sure if you are dealing with a reputable delivery company. It will all be sorted out and clear.
I just found when I looked in to it. Possibly because in my other life I deal regularly with some of these issues. H&S and help sort out the mess. After things have gone wrong. So I asked the questions.

Some questions are better asked first. Rather than find out after the fact.

The definition of an employee and a contractor might be a bit more complex than you realize.
You might think saying he is a contractor it’s is his problem is enough.

Or you might get a very nasty shock after an accident.

 

[alant]

I think you are probably have much more knowledge than I do about the sailing business, chartering, boat purchase and sales.
You definitely have more knowledge than I do about UK requirements. My knowledge is based on Canadian regulation and particularly BC.
What I referred to is BC Canadian law and May have no equivalent in UK. I would be surprised though if this is the case.
UK H&S is generally quite far ahead of and much more stringent than the Laws here.

I am sure if you are dealing with a reputable delivery company. It will all be sorted out and clear.
I just found when I looked in to it. Possibly because in my other life I deal regularly with some of these issues. H&S and help sort out the mess. After things have gone wrong. So I asked the questions.

Some questions are better asked first. Rather than find out after the fact.

The definition of an employee and a contractor might be a bit more complex than you realize.
You might think saying he is a contractor it’s is his problem is enough.

Or you might get a very nasty shock after an accident.

Delivery Skippers want hassle free work with the best possible wages, whilst owners want a hassle free delivery at lowest possible cost to them in terms of wages/costs. Across these parameters, there is a wide spectrum of arrangements. Some owners have big open pockets, but the majority seem to want the job done for next to nothing, happy to pay lots of £'s for a lump of plastic, but as mean as scrooge to get it delivered, particularly when the delivery & weather is relatively easy with the owner then begrudging any payment (could have done that myself, so why am I paying syndrome). Insurance is expensive & can only increase costs.
When/if things go wrong, it becomes a legal/insurance jungle, as many examples have proven.

 

[Uricanejack]

I think it goes for most transactions. Boats,cars houses we all usually want the best deal. My dad always used to find a wee man down the pub who would do a job for cash. I did myself quite a fewtimes , My dad and I were lucky it never went wrong.

I do recall some years ago when I was getting ready to deliver my own boat to myself. I got a quote from a trucking company and a delivery company. Not knowing any delivery companies I got a quote from a rather infamous one I found on line.
Can’t recall the story but I think there was a couple off boats lost with fatalities.

I have heard of a few others involving cats.

 

[laika]

I've been in the OP's situation (mate, commercial endorsement) a few times. I've had no special insurance. Was that wise? IANAL. But neither, I suspect, are other posters here. For me it comes within the sphere of acceptable risk. But hey, I've just been lucky and nothing which might have been a problem of that nature has ever arisen for me.

The OP doesn't give details of his status but generally speaking delivery companies are desperate to distance themselves from any kind of official arrangement with anyone except the skipper and so minimise their perceived liability. So even as (effectively) mate with a commercially endorsed yachtmaster you'd still be a "volunteer" and whilst there may be "traveling expenses" or some kind of "bonus" if they're desperate, you won't be "paid". As previously stated, IANAL but it's hard to see how anyone other than the skipper could would require indemnity insurance.

I got a quote from a rather infamous one I found on line.
Can’t recall the story but I think there was a couple off boats lost with fatalities.

Reliance advertise for "unpaid volunteer delivery crew".

For medical etc. I have a fancy charge card which comes with actually worthwhile insurance which covers me for dangerous sports including sailing so long as I'm not out of the UK for more than 90 days at a time. That leaves evacuation charges. TBH that's a risk I'm prepared to accept. If it wipes out my "one day I'll need to buy a house" fund so be it.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Volunteers are covered by HSW legislation in the same way as employees. This became so many years ago; I remember it because it suddenly became much harder to bring in volunteers at work! In fact, our HR department stated that they preferred people to be employed, as it was MUCH simpler insurance and HSW wise! But even minimum wage makes a dent in budgets, so we simply found there were far fewer students that we could offer temporary positions. But the bottom line is that an organization that is attempting to reduce its liability by calling people "volunteers" or by making them the responsibility of someone they ARE employing is on a hiding to nothing, liability-wise.

 

[Daedelus]

MAJOR WARNING

This was raised many years back and I thought I had a vague recollection:

look here: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?83379-Yacht-delivery-warning

I seem to recall this (or a similar case) where a delivery skipper asked his pal if he would like to join him on delivering a mobo back to Poole. They programmed the GPS with the buoys they would use as Waypoints and during a nasty night with poor viz managed to hit the (?) Shingles buoy, punched a darn great hole in the mobo which they just managed to beach on the mainland.

The case went to court and the professional had liability insurance but his pal who was with him did not. The judge ruled that blame for the accident was a split on a 60:40 basis or something and the guy who thought he was along for a jolly was liable for £200,000 and lost his house.

A salutary warning.

 

[Mister Rhino]

Morning......I have what I hope is a fairly straightforward question which I think I know the answer to but would like to check with the forum.

If you are helping deliver a Yacht from overseas as crew and hold a commercial endorsement (but are not the skipper), what sort of insurance is required? Holiday insurance or Extreme sports holiday insurance to cover yourself. What about professional liability insurance. Or do people just go without?

I do not believe the coast guard charge for rescues but I am sure every country is different so I guess extreme sports cover should be a minimum but what about professional liability?

If you were to destroy or damage the boat or other property while sailing as crew, you would (at least under English law) be liable for the cost of the damage done. Even if the vesel were insured, the insurer could come after you for the cost, thus you might consider having cover for several million pounds against that happening. There was a thread on this very issue recently.

In addittion you want to make sure you are covered for medical/injury, declaring that you are working as yacht crew, failing to declare that you are employed as crew will invalidate the policy otherwise.

hope this helps

 

[laika]

MAJOR WARNING

This was raised many years back and I thought I had a vague recollection:

look here: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?83379-Yacht-delivery-warning

There was a thread on this very issue recently.

I did caveat my earlier statement with "IANAL". I would however ask previous posters and others whether they've ever heard of anyone taking out PI insurance for an unpaid crewing job as anything other than skipper because I've not heard of it before and if this was a significant practical risk I would have thought that taking out such insurance would be more common.

The only write up of the incident to which Daedelus and Mister Rhino refer which I could find online is this one (mentioned in the thread referenced above):
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/mar/17/samjones.uknews2

In this case there was a consideration, albeit small, and the term "contracted" is used.

We do have *actual* lawyers here and yacht delivery company managers who may have looked into this a little more than the independent yacht skippers, maybe they'll be able to comment?

 

[Skylark]

We do have *actual* lawyers here and yacht delivery company managers who may have looked into this a little more than the independent yacht skippers, maybe they'll be able to comment?

Good question but I suspect that yacht delivery company managers are unlikely to raise above the parapet on this matter, albeit I’d love to be proven wrong.

Some delivery companies specifically request YM qualified volunteer crew depending upon the nature of the planned voyage yet offer no reward other than to reimburse minimum to/from travel expenses and rely upon the skipper to feed them, but only when aboard, not ashore (if delayed by bad weather for example).

What’s the root cause of this? I suspect that it’s that too many people are prepared to volunteer, too much competition among delivery companies and owners unwilling to pay for the service. So crew status becomes very grey.

Heaven forbid, should there be an incident the first port of call would be the boat / owners insurance. I have no doubt that delivery companies ensure that boat insurers are made aware of the planned trip.

Insurance companies will try to recover some/all of the money paid out in an incident if they think there’s cause. If the volunteer crew is alleged negligent, why wouldn’t the insurance company go in for the kill? Hence having personal liability insurance seems sensible. Having comprehensive medical insurance, out of UK jurisdiction,
is just common sense, isn’t it?

Having both medical and personal liability insurance may make volunteering less attractive.

Perhaps another alternative is to lodge a negligence disclaimer with the delivery company. I’ve no idea if this is possible but I suspect it would throw a cat among the pigeons.

The OP has raised a great question, another boating skeleton in the closet. For every delivery crew volunteer, it would be good to get unambiguous clarity on this matter.

 

[alant]

Good question but I suspect that yacht delivery company managers are unlikely to raise above the parapet on this matter, albeit I’d love to be proven wrong.

Some delivery companies specifically request YM qualified volunteer crew depending upon the nature of the planned voyage yet offer no reward other than to reimburse minimum to/from travel expenses and rely upon the skipper to feed them, but only when aboard, not ashore (if delayed by bad weather for example).

What’s the root cause of this? I suspect that it’s that too many people are prepared to volunteer, too much competition among delivery companies and owners unwilling to pay for the service. So crew status becomes very grey.

Heaven forbid, should there be an incident the first port of call would be the boat / owners insurance. I have no doubt that delivery companies ensure that boat insurers are made aware of the planned trip.

Insurance companies will try to recover some/all of the money paid out in an incident if they think there’s cause. If the volunteer crew is alleged negligent, why wouldn’t the insurance company go in for the kill? Hence having personal liability insurance seems sensible. Having comprehensive medical insurance, out of UK jurisdiction,
is just common sense, isn’t it?

Having both medical and personal liability insurance may make volunteering less attractive.

Perhaps another alternative is to lodge a negligence disclaimer with the delivery company. I’ve no idea if this is possible but I suspect it would throw a cat among the pigeons.

The OP has raised a great question, another boating skeleton in the closet. For every delivery crew volunteer, it would be good to get unambiguous clarity on this matter.

Has "personal liability insurance" ever actually protected any delivery skipper against a claim? Got any examples?
Great in theory, but not convinced about practice. Insurance companies have barn door sized exclusions to cover any payments they might have to make (negligence/gross negligence being one).

 

[Halcyon Yachts]

Morning......I have what I hope is a fairly straightforward question which I think I know the answer to but would like to check with the forum.

If you are helping deliver a Yacht from overseas as crew and hold a commercial endorsement (but are not the skipper), what sort of insurance is required? Holiday insurance or Extreme sports holiday insurance to cover yourself. What about professional liability insurance. Or do people just go without?

I do not believe the coast guard charge for rescues but I am sure every country is different so I guess extreme sports cover should be a minimum but what about professional liability?

The skipper of the vessel has command and therefore ultimate responsibility for the boat. As crew, either a volunteer or paid, you are not responsible if an incident occurs. The only insurance that you need to consider is for health and possessions - and this should be a specialist policy to cover people who are sailing.

We take a belt and braces approach to insurance. As such we have full professional liability, employers liability and third party and passenger liability. We also make sure the owner has full insurance as well.

As I see it, the most serious risk to crew is if your actions caused harm to someone else and then their family sued you... This would actually be no different in the eyes of the law to accidentally harming someone in every day life.

I recommended that you check what policies the delivery company has, take out health insurance if you are sailing outside of the EU and also take out insurance to cover your personal possessions.

This may help: http://www.topsailinsurance.com/halcyon-yachts-ltd

Pete

 

[Halcyon Yachts]

Some delivery companies specifically request YM qualified volunteer crew depending upon the nature of the planned voyage yet offer no reward other than to reimburse minimum to/from travel expenses and rely upon the skipper to feed them, but only when aboard, not ashore (if delayed by bad weather for example).

What’s the root cause of this? I suspect that it’s that too many people are prepared to volunteer, too much competition among delivery companies and owners unwilling to pay for the service. So crew status becomes very grey.

I don't think crew status is a grey area. You have a skipper and crew. The qualification of the crew is fairly irrelevant in terms of the hierarchy on board.

I came into this business initially as a freelance skipper for several other companies. I was shocked at how things were managed and thought I'd enjoy the challenge of doing things better. Some of the companies I worked for have long since folded and some are still going. One of the issues I always had was with the potential exploitation of crew. Many companies used to ask crew to contribute to costs, and some still ask crew to pay their own travel whilst claiming to the owners that travel is included in the fee. I set up Halcyon Yachts over 10 years ago and have tried to change this culture. In the early days I naively thought we could insist that all crew are paid out of fairness and to ensure the best service. The trouble is that would make us three times more expensive than our competition. We would have folded in the first year as people are simply not prepared to pay that much. Instead we have built our reputation and always strived to treat our crew fairly. We now have a very loyal group of excellent crew who simply won't crew for anyone else. This has actually caused a shift in some of the more exploitative measures that were used across the industry.

Pete

 

[Uricanejack]

The news report on the case from 2003 delivery has very little actual information on why the Friend was found liable.
It does say the insurance company refused to pay due to negligence. Why the crew were found negligent s not in the report.
So not a case of no insurance. A case of negligence. Maybe.

Crew responsible. Depends on crew duty. Cook or deckhand. The level of responsibility would be low.
If the crew was acting as a Mate and was in charge of a watch.
They would be responsible.
It would appear the unfortunate chap 2003 who was on the helm. Was found by the court that be in charge of the watch with the conduct of the vessel. As opposed to just steering a course the skipper had ordered.

Insurance for malpractice? Ask a doctor or a lawyer how much that costs.

Yacht Delivery’s do seam to have some rather questionable practice. Depends on the company.
Making it clear who is working in for who and who is responsible for what. Definitely should be clear.

If you are considering being crew on a delivery crew. Asking who are you working for? The owner, a delivery company or the skipper. Would be a good idea.

 

[alant]

The news report on the case from 2003 delivery has very little actual information on why the Friend was found liable.
It does say the insurance company refused to pay due to negligence. Why the crew were found negligent s not in the report.
So not a case of no insurance. A case of negligence. Maybe.

Crew responsible. Depends on crew duty. Cook or deckhand. The level of responsibility would be low.
If the crew was acting as a Mate and was in charge of a watch.
They would be responsible.
It would appear the unfortunate chap 2003 who was on the helm. Was found by the court that be in charge of the watch with the conduct of the vessel. As opposed to just steering a course the skipper had ordered.

Insurance for malpractice? Ask a doctor or a lawyer how much that costs.

Yacht Delivery’s do seam to have some rather questionable practice. Depends on the company.
Making it clear who is working in for who and who is responsible for what. Definitely should be clear.

If you are considering being crew on a delivery crew. Asking who are you working for? The owner, a delivery company or the skipper. Would be a good idea.

The insurance company paid out, then went after the skipper & crew iirc.