Deliberately starting an anchor thread.

[GHA]

I think the issue may be with smaller boats -

Or maybe not......
Long term cruisers will often go up a size if they're splashing out on a new hook. No downside for the vast majority. It's no big deal.
If you spend any time on web sailing forums you'll find no one really disagrees, except for one person on the planet on here who gets all hot and bothered about it for some reason and thinks there's some sort of global call for cruising boats to have 'monster anchors' (there isn't) and it must he stopped.
Life's too short imho, stuck records go on ignore..

 

[dom]

Or maybe not......
Long term cruisers will often go up a size if they're splashing out on a new hook. No downside for the vast majority. It's no big deal.
If you spend any time on web sailing forums you'll find no one really disagrees, except for one person on the planet on here who gets all hot and bothered about it for some reason and thinks there's some sort of global call for cruising boats to have 'monster anchors' (there isn't) and it must he stopped.
Life's too short imho, stuck records go on ignore..

I'm not sure that's fair on Neeves, he rightly points out that these 'beliefs' are just that, a general non-scientific sense that bigger is better. There are many open questions here.

Spade for example told me a 20/25kg anchor would be perfect. So I bought two; a 'correctly' sized one and a bigger one for offshore. Spade laughed and dared to bet that the bigger one would never be used!

Years later, and I've tested the smaller 'correct' one in over 60kts (offshore), wondering if I should weigh anchor and replace with the heavier one. Anchored on a long 3m over LAT shelf, so didn't bother. It never moved.

So all I'd say is dunno, and if Neeves wants to investigate, more power to him :encouragement:

 

[GHA]

I'm not sure that's fair on Neeves, he rightly points out that these 'beliefs' are just that, a general non-scientific sense that bigger is better. There are many open questions here.

Spade for example told me a 20/25kg anchor would be perfect. So I bought two; a 'correctly' sized one and a bigger one for offshore. Spade laughed and dared to bet that the bigger one would never be used!

Years later, and I've tested the smaller 'correct' one in over 60kts (offshore), wondering if I should weigh anchor and replace with the heavier one. Anchored on a long 3m over LAT shelf, so didn't bother. It never moved.

So all I'd say is dunno, and if Neeves wants to investigate, more power to him :encouragement:

It's not a 'belief', just quite a few long term cruisers will go up a size, absolutely no downside at all for most and live on the hook year in year out sooner or later you'll get hammered and might be glad of a little more size if you're getting hammered and the holding isn't great. He doesn't 'investigate', just bangs on about 'monster anchors' at every opertunity,no one else on the planet is bothered.

 

[Neeves]

It's not a 'belief', just quite a few long term cruisers will go up a size, absolutely no downside at all for most and live on the hook year in year out sooner or later you'll get hammered and might be glad of a little more size if you're getting hammered and the holding isn't great. He doesn't 'investigate', just bangs on about 'monster anchors' at every opertunity,no one else on the planet is bothered.

I think 60 kn with the recommended sized anchor is being hammered (especially as Spade tend to recommend weights smaller than Rocna, Supreme and Excel (if you investigated you would know this).

I rest my case.

The other comments are simply derogatory. But if it make you feel better - good on yer! Keep it up.

Jonathan

 

[dom]

It's not a 'belief', just quite a few long term cruisers will go up a size, absolutely no downside at all for most and live on the hook year in year out sooner or later you'll get hammered and might be glad of a little more size if you're getting hammered and the holding isn't great. He doesn't 'investigate', just bangs on about 'monster anchors' at every opertunity,no one else on the planet is bothered.

It nevertheless remains a belief up until the point scientific evidence provides a sound basis for it. I'm always hesitant to set aside personal experience in favour of the presumed authority of a group claiming true knowledge.

I'm not trying to compare Neeves to Galileo's 1633 condemnation by the Catholic Inquisition. But I do find his prosaic and mostly scientific examination of the facts to be a waft of fresh air in threads dominated by prejudice and dogmas from a mostly bygone age.

Perhaps this is why he irritates some people so much?

 

[GHA]

It nevertheless remains a belief up until the point scientific evidence provides a sound basis for it. I'm always hesitant to set aside personal experience in favour of the presumed authority of a group claiming true knowledge.

I'm not trying to compare Neeves to Galileo's 1633 condemnation by the Catholic Inquisition. But I do find his prosaic and mostly scientific examination of the facts to be a waft of fresh air in threads dominated by prejudice and dogmas from a mostly bygone age.

Perhaps this is why he irritates some people so much?

If bigger hooks don't have higher holding why would bigger boats bother? Long term cruisers tend to want to edge the probabilities a bit more in their favour with no downside, a few extra Kg & a few quid won't even register on most cruising boats.

But each to their own, that's just what happens quite often in the world of cruisers , your boat, your call

Thinwater is the guy to listen to about physics, he does actually know what he's talking about with regards to forces & energy transfer.

 

[johnalison]

So a 10kg bruce (22lb) is better than a massive 45lb CQR. Tells me all I suspected about CQRs.

It was just one occasion, but as far as I remember we had tried two or three times to anchor in the fairway where the bottom is fairly hard, with occasional large stones. Not wishing to go further away, I tried the Bruce with a section of chain and the rest warp and was very impressed. Since the CQR lives in the roller I have continued to use it, but the Bruce has been effective as a stern anchor, for which it is pretty well standard issue in Sweden.

 

[capnsensible]

It nevertheless remains a belief up until the point scientific evidence provides a sound basis for it. I'm always hesitant to set aside personal experience in favour of the presumed authority of a group claiming true knowledge.

Well Im always up for some real life anchor stories having done it around a billion times......goes with the job.

So, there we are, Mrs Sensible and me, second Atlantic circuit. Moody 33. Antigua Jolly Harbour. Now that can be a PITA to clear in and out of with a lw kind of attitude ( they will be numpty muppest buggering about or something) . So a top tip is to rock up abot 1540. All the officials are clockwatching ready for homeward bounders.

Clear out and anchor outside ready for a dawn oclock departure.

Lots of the Carib is crystal clear water and you can see if the anchor is set..... but a quick dive ets you cool if you have a hand windlass as we did at the time.

However outside Jolly, the wonderful sand is stirred to very poor vis so a good look never goes amiss. So, nudge in towards shore at right angles. Our seafarer sounder goes a bit bonkers in shallows, so mostly local knowledge. Nice distance off, drop CQR and set. Lovely, transits cool. However, safety first, on fins and mask, hop in over stern and fin around to anchor. Odd? mmm. Well we got medium long keel and only draw 1.4m.

Find anchor, well set. Stand up, water to knees. Wave to wife, 'reckon we're good, open wine.'

Next morning around 0530, anchor up by hand, beautiful dawn, bound for St. Maarten.

Anchoring is easy.

 

[Neeves]

In the 19th Century the British were looking for a mechanism to increase sales to China. One idea muted was 'by convincing every Chinese person to extend the length of their shirt tails by one inch. ... ' as this would increase sale of cotton goods. (How things have changed!)

Anchor makers appear to have good memories: Sales are not expanding so, generate a fear factor 'long term cruisers use anchors larger than those recommended' (this cannot be verified so safe to quote - and it will be repeated again and again). Ensure some gullible people join the fenzy - quote Dashew every so often - just get people to use bigger anchors than we recommend - we don't need to sell more anchors, just bigger anchors.

Who needs salesmen.

Hands up anyone who has dragged a 2nd gen anchor - and describe the circumstances, anchor size and recommended size, yacht length, seabed, wind etc. 2nd Gen anchors have been used for over 10 years now - there must be lots of anecdotes - and lessons to learn

Episodes of catching shopping trolleys are accepted.

Jonathan

 

[Frank Holden]

2nd Gen?... I thought 2nd Gen was 'rocks in a bag'... 1st Gen being 'stone with a hole in it'

Surely we are up to about the 5th or 6th Generation?

Minor point of order... sorry... carry on chaps....

I think my Rocna is 25kg.... 39 foot boat... about 8000 kg? Have yet to use it on hard sand....

Must be 25 kg... wouldn't have let me on the 'plane with it otherwise....

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I regard the Bruce as 2nd generation, and they certainly fail to set on hard ground if they don't roll over, and can be poor in penetrating weed. (unless you regard fishermans as 1st, CQR as 2nd etc)

Delta, Supreme, Spade, Rocna are all 3rd generation trying to address the 2nd generation problems to varying degrees by having anti-invert bars, sharpened points, weighted tips etc. Their only problem is fitting in the bow roller without damaging hull etc

Various technical tests were carried out and though these may be ground dependant they certainly enable informed comparison. My impression was that this enabled some knowledgeable yotties to downsize anchors due to increased efficiency.

 

[geem]

Well Im always up for some real life anchor stories having done it around a billion times......goes with the job.

So, there we are, Mrs Sensible and me, second Atlantic circuit. Moody 33. Antigua Jolly Harbour. Now that can be a PITA to clear in and out of with a lw kind of attitude ( they will be numpty muppest buggering about or something) . So a top tip is to rock up abot 1540. All the officials are clockwatching ready for homeward bounders.

Clear out and anchor outside ready for a dawn oclock departure.

Lots of the Carib is crystal clear water and you can see if the anchor is set..... but a quick dive ets you cool if you have a hand windlass as we did at the time.

However outside Jolly, the wonderful sand is stirred to very poor vis so a good look never goes amiss. So, nudge in towards shore at right angles. Our seafarer sounder goes a bit bonkers in shallows, so mostly local knowledge. Nice distance off, drop CQR and set. Lovely, transits cool. However, safety first, on fins and mask, hop in over stern and fin around to anchor. Odd? mmm. Well we got medium long keel and only draw 1.4m.

Find anchor, well set. Stand up, water to knees. Wave to wife, 'reckon we're good, open wine.'

Next morning around 0530, anchor up by hand, beautiful dawn, bound for St. Maarten.

Anchoring is easy.

Haha, good job you picked the best holding in the Caribbean, since you were using a CQR��.
Jolly anchorage really is incredible holding. Its like setting your anchor in cement.

 

[capnsensible]

Haha, good job you picked the best holding in the Caribbean, since you were using a CQR��.
Jolly anchorage really is incredible holding. Its like setting your anchor in cement.

Suppose. The only other places I anchored aroud there was Trinida.d. And most of the Grenadines and St Vincent. St Lucia. Muddy off Rodney Bay maina btw. And Martinique. Guadaloupe. Antigua. The Saints. Dominica. Antigua. St. Kitts. Nevis. St Maarten and tin. St Barts. Quite a bit of the BVI..s. Culebra and St Thomas and others. And a fair bit in the Bahamas. Thats most of it, really. CQR. Sleep easy.

 

[Neeves]

My impression was that this enabled some knowledgeable yotties to downsize anchors due to increased efficiency.

I cannot believe I've read that

Jonathan

arbitrary classification

CQR, Bruce, Delta - 1st generation, coincidentally all classified as HHP anchors

Rocna, Supreme, Excel, Spade, Fortress, Ultra 2nd Generation and all classified as SHHP. I think Knox fits into the 2nd Gen, I'd put Kobra there as well with a caution on its shank strength.

Bags of stones (Zoidberg excluded) are not much used, nor Fishermans - so being biased - I ignore them. I am sure there are others - but I have no experience of a genuine Danforth, Northhill etc etc

 

[Kukri]

The Northhill was held in high esteem by Bob Griffith (Ahwanee”). Unlike the CQR, which was used by RAF Sunderlands. it really was intended for flying boats. A real swine to stow and probably extinct now.

Our Victorian forebears seem to have gone through a phase of being as obsessed with anchors as we are, but theirs were all variations on the Fisherman theme - the Trotman, which had hinged palms, etc.

I notice that the CQRs sold by Lewmar have fabricated shanks; no more drop forging. Sic transit British Heavy Industry.

 

[RupertW]

I cannot believe I've read that

Jonathan

arbitrary classification

CQR, Bruce, Delta - 1st generation, coincidentally all classified as HHP anchors

Rocna, Supreme, Excel, Spade, Fortress, Ultra 2nd Generation and all classified as SHHP. I think Knox fits into the 2nd Gen, I'd put Kobra there as well with a caution on its shank strength.

Bags of stones (Zoidberg excluded) are not much used, nor Fishermans - so being biased - I ignore them. I am sure there are others - but I have no experience of a genuine Danforth, Northhill etc etc

It is arbitrary - how you can ignore all the Fisherman variations and then classify CQR and Delta as the same generation baffles me. Let’s stick to arguing merits of different options or we are angel pin counting.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Which begs the question - if the first gen anchors can be reliable and they have half the hold of the 2nd gen anchors but the same sized anchor (whether 1st or 2nd gen) is recommended for a yacht - why the oversizing of the 2nd gen anchors. Was there this clarion call from the armchair when people wanted to buy a new 1st gen anchor - or is it simply an 'internet' thing (and that fear factor to which Minn aludes).

Beats the hell out of me. If I ever buy an anchor more NG than my Fortress, I'll be buying it to get the same holding power as my 25lb CQR at half the weight.

 

[Kukri]

I have been poking about in my bookcase.

The Hiscocks carried two 35lbs CQRs in Wanderer III, with 45 fathoms of 5/16” chain, no windlass.

He records that they dragged twice, at English Harbour (q.v.!) in soft mud and at Ascension Island in volcanic cinders.

HW Tilman carried a 60lbs CQR as his bower anchor with a 112lbs Fisherman, a 45lbs CQR and a 25lbs CQR as spares (we lost the last three getting off in Freemansund).

 

[duncan99210]

Once upon a time, when I had a salary and a mobo, I used a 10kg Bruceish. Nice easy to stow anchor, used a dozen or so times a year in the Menai. Never a worry, but I was an anchoring neophyte then, knowing no better than to drop the hook in the water, let the tide take me back and that’s it.....
The I got a pension and a sailing yacht (‘cos I could t afford the fuel any more). We had a 35lb CQR on chain (no idea how much when we set off, just ‘some’ chain). Used it a few times in the Menai, again not a problem but oh it was nice having an anchor winch....
The next spring we were in Pollenca, Mallorca, and sat out a 60 knot two day blow. On the CQR plus a Danforthish. Quite exciting but it didn’t budge, fun getting the things back out of the hard sand/mud. And so it continued, down to Greece, back to Spain and eventually, back to Pollenca. And another blow,
Could we get the wretched CQR to set? No we couldn’t. No idea why, but that was the last straw, as the thing had become more and more reluctant to set. So we got a 20kg Rocna. Oh, how different it is. Drop the thing in the water with enough chain, motor backwards and it sets. Just like that. It’s come out just once in a force 6 in Sardinia where we found we’d anchored in a deep weed bed.
Our kedge is a Guardian and the only complaint I’ll make against it is it can be truly difficult to recover it in the dinghy once it’s had a bit of wind on it. So we’ve learnt that lesson and now use the anchor windlass to recover it as well as the bower.
Our late, unlamented CQR now resides at the bottom of San Charles marina, after it fell off the foredeck as we spent the winter there. Best place for it.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

A 35lb (15kg) Hiscock used on his 30ft is large and even my slightly over size 11kg Supreme on my 31ft is smaller . What with 45 fathom (80 metres) of chain its all quite a weight and that much chain would not even fit in my chain locker.

Some of my earlier comments on general undersizing of anchors were based on observing 7.5kg cqr copies on many marina based or charter boats most of which seem much bigger than my craft.