Declining numbers of Sailors

mobeydick said:
Thus far, the thread has only mentioned sailing yachts. Has anybody any thoughts on motor boat usage? Judging by the SBS there seemed to be a higher % of motor boats than I have seen before, and I would guess there are more in marinas. If people are more cash rich/time poor, I would think the number of motor boat 'sailors' would be increasing. The Solent would still not seem busy (except at 'rush hours') as mobos spend less time in transit.

It would also fit in with the more modern/current approach of seeking instant gratification.

MD
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The story mentioned in post 63 also claimed:

"Only 1 in 10 new yachts have sails"



Keeping a large sailing boat in the UK is a bit grim for the average wage slave, better to grab your 3 or 4 weeks annual break in a cheaper place with good weather. That is what a lot of people are doing, see the threads on the MoBo page. It's slightly different if you are well off, live by the coast, are retired or a keen racer......though even the racers are feeling the winds of change see the tread on the racing page re cruiser/racers

The smaller racing classes seem to be doing ok. Someone asked about the West Country, I always see a grand turnout in Salcombe with the Yawls etc, ditto the Troys in Fowey, and the Working Boats in Falmouth always seem popular with their huge crews. I assume it is similar with the large number of classic classes on the Solent?
A keen sailor might keep a small boat here and bigger on the Med.

It's just social change nothing to wring our hands about
 
On the other hand, I have two great chums who are relatively new to sailing.

I'll say at the outset they are on the wrong end of middle aged, but by no means near normal retirement.

One is on his 3rd season now, never sailed before, loves it but takes it all quite seriously and a little cautiously, in the good sensible sense; he lives near the Thames so recently bought a small mobo too for convenience, but he and his wife have tried the mobo there and in open sea, and have just said ' that's our last trip, sod that we prefer sailing '.

My other chum has spent a lifetime at sea on fishing boats - and inshore & offshore lifeboats - but now has his first real own boat, he was determined it would be a sailing boat.

Despite his mobo background he is the most committed sailor in the club, a bar stool warrior nearly fell over the other day when he discovered said chum managed 33 decent trips worth logging - and lots of lesser ones - in his first season.

PLEASE don't take this as anti-mobo, it's not; I can see the attraction, and sometimes quite fancy something like a Nelson; I just think it interesting that two people who could very easily have taken the mobo route for convenience and / or familiarity have both chosen sail.

I think some people don't expect rewards without work; maybe that's what sailing is all about really ?

When I read ' Down Channel ' I reckon I'd have been one of McMullen's slacking, soon to be sacked crew but I still don't expect to ' get there ' just by turning a key, and whenever motoring long distances, no matter what sailing boat I'm in I'm waiting for when the engine packs up . lobster pot rope round prop...

Serious mobo owners have serious seaworthy boats with precautions in place for engine & prop trouble, not a phallic shaped thing only designed to look good in daft James Bond films.

I don't think modern people have turned that shallow, or the world would be full of jetski's.
 
Seajet said:
I don't think you can have been trying very hard; in my situation my mooring is an hour motoring - or if the wind has an unusual northerly component, sailing - from the entrance.

Only a mug tries to beat the full flood or ebb, at 3 hours before HW.

Boat is afloat at 3 hours before - or after HW so off I trundle towards the entrance - arrive 2 hours before HW at best, and tide outside starts going my way 1 hour before HW.

It works out coming back too.

Going in or out at LW is not great if there are significant waves, and most people time around HW Portsmouth anyway.

One thing where a lot of people get it wrong is in choice of tender; this takes quite careful consideration, it has to be light enough to handle without a hernia, but safe for family and kit - I travelled a long way to get mine.

I had various deep water moorings around Chichester and Portsmouth and hated them; a real pain re tender and car parking, and one needed a young lifebopat to be safe in such distant locations.

A thing people often overlook is that while a mooring may be deep water with the boat happily bobbing about, the tender access is completely tidal so one is just as restricted as a half tide mooring anyway !
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That all sounds like a lot of hard work. Life's too short and I think I have too many children to make that work and however you dress it up - half the time the boat ain't afloat. It works really well for you but it won't attract families to sailing!
 
Colvic Watson said:
That all sounds like a lot of hard work. Life's too short and I think I have too many children to make that work and however you dress it up - half the time the boat ain't afloat. It works really well for you but it won't attract families to sailing!
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Spot on.

Sailing on your own as Andy suggests you can fit around the tide. Especially if you are semi-retired, close to the boat, self employed etc.
Take the case though of a typical family able to afford a boat. Parents will both be working. Kids likely to be at school. That means sailing is basically limited to Friday evening to Sunday evening plus school holidays.

If you then take out weekends when one member of the family has another commitment ( another childs party!!) or when the weather is horrible you end up with not many weekends available to go sailing. IF you then restrict whats left by imposing tidal constraints on access then you could end up on board maybe once a month.

That's hardly then worth the capital outlay + running costs .
 
Colvic Watson said:
That all sounds like a lot of hard work. Life's too short and I think I have too many children to make that work and however you dress it up - half the time the boat ain't afloat. It works really well for you but it won't attract families to sailing!
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jac said:
Spot on.

Sailing on your own as Andy suggests you can fit around the tide. Especially if you are semi-retired, close to the boat, self employed etc.
Take the case though of a typical family able to afford a boat. Parents will both be working. Kids likely to be at school. That means sailing is basically limited to Friday evening to Sunday evening plus school holidays.

If you then take out weekends when one member of the family has another commitment ( another childs party!!) or when the weather is horrible you end up with not many weekends available to go sailing. IF you then restrict whats left by imposing tidal constraints on access then you could end up on board maybe once a month.

That's hardly then worth the capital outlay + running costs .
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+ Another.

Forget about all that hassle. A marina is soooo much easier.
 
JumbleDuck said:
And soooo much more expensive. My boat is on a swinging mooring next to a marina. For my normal usage pattern I save £250 every time I row to or from the mooring.
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Yes, but living as far away from the sea as I do, I am prepared to pay that price for the convenience. Having travelled 100 miles to the boat, there is no way I would then want to go to the hassle that Seajet describes.

I'm not saying he is wrong, or I am right. We are just different. Seajet seems to think that small boats on half tide moorings is the way to go. I don't.

We are different.
 
All this talk of "families" is nice, but I really think that is the wrong market for sailing. I was the director of marketing at my club a decade ago and after a careful marketing study I came to realize that the proper market was 35-50 year old professionals with no kids. And just 3 days ago we had a new couple join my club. Guess what: he's 35, she's 29 and they told me outright "we are not having kids." They just got back from their month long vacation in Europe and joined our club the next week.

As has been discussed by others in this thread, sailing takes a lot of money and a lot of time. It is only young to middle aged professionals without kids who can really do it. But you don't need to worry; there are lots and lots of those people around, you just have to find them and entice them to your marina.
 
My mooring is an hour and a quarter's drive away, at best.

Families ARE attracted to doing it like I do, either by coming along on my boat or just sorting it out for themselves.

It's very easy to suggest ' have a Rolls Royce or nothing ' ( in fact I wouldn't have a modern one unless extremely well paid to be seen with it ) - ' marina's or nothing for me '...

That's just the lazy approach, as exemplified by the tiny percentage of boats in marinas which actually move anywhere.

If you're remotely keen and not throwing money around, a boat which will take the ground - could be very comfortable but still well performing like a Fulmar or Trapper 501 twin keeler, past my 22 to designs like the Hunter 19 which is a brilliant boat to sail but tiny below - combined with a drying half tide mooring, is I am quite sure the answer, having tried deep water moorings - worst of both worlds - and marinas - yes I have had berths in them over the years, and found them silly expensive, cold and unfriendly, and clueless when it came to lifting masts and boats, my club does it far more carefully as we know each other.
 
Angele said:
Yes, but living as far away from the sea as I do, I am prepared to pay that price for the convenience. Having travelled 100 miles to the boat, there is no way I would then want to go to the hassle that Seajet describes.

I'm not saying he is wrong, or I am right. We are just different. Seajet seems to think that small boats on half tide moorings is the way to go. I don't.

We are different.
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I just happen to believe most worthwhile things are going to require a little hassle; though I don't see it as that, I enjoy being involved and would feel emasculated paying other people to do everything with and to my boat.

Angele,

if you feel differently fair enough, and why not ?!

Some people like 70's disco, I like 60's & 80's stuff, but I wouldn't shoot the 70's fans.
 
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Angele said:
Yes, but living as far away from the sea as I do, I am prepared to pay that price for the convenience. Having travelled 100 miles to the boat, there is no way I would then want to go to the hassle that Seajet describes.

I'm not saying he is wrong, or I am right. We are just different....
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Keep up at the back please and less of this 'just different' malarkey.

Our post-Brexit fantasy land will be dominated by 'Boris boats' (a British made nautical version of the Trabant), all sporting Brexiteer Blue sails. :D
 
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dom said:
Keep up at the back please and less of this 'just different' malarkey.

Our post-Brexit fantasy land will be dominated by 'Boris boats' (a British made nautical version of the Trabant), all sporting Brexiteer Blue sails. :D
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Are scotland not taking back control of blue and hence the English / Welsh ensign will be without the saltire colours?
 
Foolish Muse said:
All this talk of "families" is nice, but I really think that is the wrong market for sailing. I was the director of marketing at my club a decade ago and after a careful marketing study I came to realize that the proper market was 35-50 year old professionals with no kids. And just 3 days ago we had a new couple join my club. Guess what: he's 35, she's 29 and they told me outright "we are not having kids." They just got back from their month long vacation in Europe and joined our club the next week.

As has been discussed by others in this thread, sailing takes a lot of money and a lot of time. It is only young to middle aged professionals without kids who can really do it. But you don't need to worry; there are lots and lots of those people around, you just have to find them and entice them to your marina.
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Sailing. away from larger boats and marinas can be quite cheap and I know lots of people (some with kids) who have boats and certainly aren't well paid professionals.
 
I don't entirely agree - I'm 33 with 2 small children and have just bought my first 'big' boat (32'). I love sailing and have since I was 13. My wife happily admits she doesn't know her topping lift from her chart plotter but doesn't care - she wanted a second home by the sea, we couldn't afford one, and I wouldn't buy a caravan (don't like them). So a boat has been a compromise and she and the children like it. Now it's sailing characteristics are secondary to its comfort as a second home, but I think to say that young(ish) couples with children are excluded from sailing is inaccurate, as long as one sees the boat as as much of a second home/floating caravan with a stick poking out the middle as something principally designed for sailing.

I appreciate this is an anathema to many purists and the boat (a Hunter Legend 326) perhaps wouldn't have been my first choice, but as a compromise it works well. And even the marina fees, in the context of caravan park / ground rent for holiday homes of say £3k pa is not grossly disproportionate.

We couldn't have afforded a holiday home on the south coast but we can (at least I think, time will tell!) afford a boat - with the added bonus I get to sail it and, just occasionally, have that utterly sublime moment of putting up the sail, switching off the engine and just... bliss (even if peppa pig is making a racket on the iPad below).
 
I suppose it all boils down to how desperate you are to go sailing.

I bought a boat when I had no real real right to do so. Despite giving up smoking to get one .

Little did I know that buying a boat ( and getting a loan) was the easy part.

Everything else being equal , the older you are the bigger the boat . Mortgage near the end, parents leaving you property, if a baby boomer, probably a decent pension.

If you throw in availability of replacement body parts, nice furlers, selftailing electric winches,
bow thrusters, most cruising sailors are always going to be around the 70 mark.

For sailors who are now about 35, will probably be cruising well into their 80's and beyond but will probably still be working.

It all evens out in the end.
 
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savageseadog said:
Dinghy sailing is not the same as yacht sailing (and owning)
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But the title of this thread is "Declining numbers of sailors", not "yacht sailors"; most people who sail do so in dinghies and the majority of that is club racing at countless sailing clubs, many hidden away in the most unlikely places as far from the sea as is possible.
 
davidpbo said:
When I was in my twenties a modest two bed 1st house cost about 1.25 times my modest £8000 income. How does that compare now?
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When was that? In 1972 my first flat (nominally a two-bedroom flat) cost me 5.0 times my £2,500 salary. This was in London and I was qualified and working in finance.
The ratio of house prices to income is certainly a key one for mortgage lenders and seems to have max'd out at about 4 times whenever I have been looking to borrow. But one should also look at the debt service ratio, ie interest payable and repayment terms as a percentage of income after tax. Those of us with mortgages in 1989/90 will remember having to pay interest at 15 or 16%, plus repayment instalments over 25 years. There certainly wasn't much spare income left after that!
So in today's mortgage market, where one can borrow at a fixed rate of nothing at all, repayments over 30 years (if at all), is it any surprise that buyers are borrowing much larger amounts and thus pushing up house prices?
 
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