Dave Marsh "testing times"

[volvopaul]

Just reading my October issue of mby, and read as always dave marsh page.

After the posts on here about bad behaviour and wash created by motor boats I'm so pleased to read a sensible account that a planing boat makes less wash at speed than going slower at displacement speed , creating more wash to upset our wind propelled friends.

I'm so pleased to read this, maybe it will go towards motor boaters never ending abuse we get from yachts as we pass them enjoying what we do, simply being on the water.

Thanks dave for writing , and for Hugo allowing this to go to print.

 

[jfm]

I haven't read it but you (or Dave M, if he said it) cannot just say "a planing boat makes less wash at speed than going slower at displacement speed" with no further qualification. Sure it might make less wash when fully planing than when pushing the hump, but it will make less wash at proper hull speed displacement speed than when planing

 

[Elessar]

I haven't read it but you (or Dave M, if he said it) cannot just say "a planing boat makes less wash at speed than going slower at displacement speed" with no further qualification. Sure it might make less wash when fully planing than when pushing the hump, but it will make less wash at proper hull speed displacement speed than when planing

I'll be less polite than you. The statement "a planing boat makes less wash at speed than going slower at displacement speed" is misleading nonsense.

I can accept "a planing boat makes less wash at speed than going slower", but even that needs qualification.

 

[Hugo_Andreae]

The quote the OP gives is paraphrasing a rather longer sentence and is inevitably out of context given that its just one line from a much longer piece on boating manners.

No point me running the whole piece here but suggest you read pg 31 of October MBY which isn't due to hit the shops until Thursday. Clearly some lucky some subscribers have got theirs early!

 

[Elessar]

The quote the OP gives is paraphrasing a rather longer sentence and is inevitably out of context given that its just one line from a much longer piece on boating manners.

No point me running the whole piece here but suggest you read pg 31 of October MBY which isn't due to hit the shops until Thursday. Clearly some lucky some subscribers have got theirs early!

Sorry Hugo, I wasn't suggesting the article was misleading, just the quote. I will read it with interest.

 

[DAKA]

I've read it and believe it has value, I usually hate to see articles repeated across the range of IPC boating mags but really would like to see it printed or similar in ALL IPC boating mags


As to wash at speed

Its very true looking behind you it looks smaller the faster you go......thats because its further away !

However the wash effects are undoubtedly less the faster you go.....

If you creep past a raggie wash free , he has all the time in the world to get ready with the usual abusive comments.

If you flash past @ 30 knots , you are well out of ears shot by the time the raggie spots the wake and you dont suffer any wash effects at all.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

VP, its pointless. The wash issue is just a convenient stick for yotties to beat us with. If it wasn't that, they'd be complaining about something else like unsafe speed or noise or smoke or whatever. They disapprove of us on principle because they think they are the guardians of the spirit of boating and we are mere interlopers. Never mind that most of them secretly wish they were us as we flash past them

 

[volvopaul]

VP, its pointless. The wash issue is just a convenient stick for yotties to beat us with. If it wasn't that, they'd be complaining about something else like unsafe speed or noise or smoke or whatever. They disapprove of us on principle because they think they are the guardians of the spirit of boating and we are mere interlopers. Never mind that most of them secretly wish they were us as we flash past them

They never complain when they need towing off the shingle bank just outside the hamble, I can vouch for that!

Yes I agree slightly I did select text from the article, precisely the text that pricked my ears the most, or more to the point...... The point of my post.

 

[DAKA]

VP, its pointless. The wash issue is just a convenient stick for yotties to beat us with. If it wasn't that, they'd be complaining about something else like unsafe speed or noise or smoke or whatever. They disapprove of us on principle because they think they are the guardians of the spirit of boating and we are mere interlopers. Never mind that most of them secretly wish they were us as we flash past them

Talk about nail on the head , spot on Mike

So what can be done about it, here's my 5 simple steps to more pleasurable boating


1)

Take a stole down the pontoon adjacent to yours, study each stern of your neighbours ( dont want to upset them do we).

2)

when approaching raggie check to see if he is looking your way ready to give a cheery wave or looking down at his feet miserable as soot.
If the latter chances are your in for grief irrelevant of how wash free you pass so may as well make it a clean pass......... approach at usual 25knots, just as you are 10 m away increase to full throttle and turn away a little , this way by the time he shouts/gestures you will be 30 m away and showing him your stern.

3)

While in yacht clubs never mention power, never admire a stinker going past and certainly dont let on you know the difference between a sunseeker and a Princess. every now and then just chuck in a few raggie terms to a conversation Gibe, mainsail, pot noodle supplies.

4)
while walking the pontoons wear sensitive clothing, look for a pair of mockersons an old tramp has abandoned to wear while walking round the marina.

5)
Proudly fly the biggest RYA burgee you can get hold of, if any raggies communicate with you profanities , just pretend you dont understand, smile and thumbs up while pointing at the RYA flag

It really is that easy for us all to get along in harmony.

 

[SpottyDog5]

you could go a step further :
Offer to lend them a gallon of fuel to cover the season.
Give them some mugs with lids, so they don't scald themselves with the tea, they are always just making as you go past.

 

[omega2]

Some of my best friends are yotties, they never leave the MARINA, and always ask what time will be leaving in the morning, maybe to ensure the egg and bacon don't get "smoked"

 

[jfm]

Daka, thanks for the chuckle - I've just read your posts above

The relevant bit (whole para) from mby is below. Blimey Hugo, I wouldn't have written/published that. It is so wrong on so many fronts: questionable colregs, that old stupid chestnut about mobos losing steerage if they slow down, the implication that "getting past" is a justification, and a claim that staying on the plane as you pass another can keep your wake smaller. Jeeze! This does nothing to help stinkie/raggie relations in view of the mag it is published in. What a pity.

Let's not forget that understanding each other's limitations is a two-way trade. The purists who sail up and down the river would do well to remember that technically they don't have right of way as they tack across the channel. Also, that a tall motor cruiser that has stopped to let them pass will get blown around very quickly in the wind. And I've tried in vain to explain to a number of yachties that, unless we slow right down to sailboat speeds (in which case we'll never get past!) it really is better for a planing boat to stay on the plane as it passes to reduce its wake to a minimum".

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

questionable colregs

Which bit is questionable?

 

[Firefly625]

you could go a step further :
Offer to lend them a gallon of fuel to cover the season.
Give them some mugs with lids, so they don't scald themselves with the tea, they are always just making as you go past.

or if you want total absolution for your behaviour the raggies ultimate treat..

 

[oceanfroggie]

Genuine displacement mode is the only way a mobo creates a small wash. The rest is all relative. Yes it's obvious that the wake from a fast mobo fully up on the plane is less than SD speeds when they just dig a hole, but it all depends on the range, but not less than D speeds. This power/sail thing is tiresome.

It's not rocket science just a bit of common sense and consideration on all sides can minimise angst.

 

[piratos]

Which bit is questionable?

I could imagine : "they don't have right of way as they tack across the channel"

If you look at the rules - 9 d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow passage or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.

If you are in an unknown area you will def follow the fairway. A local yacht however may know you are NOT restricted to the fairway only - and behave in a way which cause a problemto you. On the other side if he with his draft of say 3 meters can cross the fairway without a problem so can a Mobo with less draft, and its hard to see him violating the rule.

++

As soon as any boat starts moving through the water it starts building up a wave. The biggest wave in displacement is when the Displacement speed has arrived, and a displacement boat will hardly be able to increase the speed further. The boat has one big wave at the bow and another at the stern.

SD/Planning boats passing the displacement speed will dig an even bigger hole - imagine the bow wave still there and the stern wave moving further behind the boat. Imagine also increasing the speed further and when the boat is fully planing it has moved up on the bow wave. The wave may be different but its still there - and look behind you (remember the thread show us your wake shot ). Pass your dinghy with 25 knots with a 40' planing boat, and see what happens - check the same with 8 knots. The kids in the small dingy may be thrown out with planning speed as the impact is severe, but with 8 knots the kids may still find it 'funny' to be onboard.

Ofcourse we can not compate a small dinghy with a big yacht, but its simply not fair to pass close to anybody at full planing speed - because "you cant hear them complaining"

We do produce waves and safety at sea is not just your own safety. Its also a matter of responsibility. You can not avoid waves - irrespective of which speed you do, but you can also be the nice guy



and I didnt want to participate in another fight

 

[DAKA]

This power/sail thing is tiresome.

The trouble is people keep winding he raggies up which really doesnt help

just a bit of common sense and consideration on all sides can minimise angst.

See what I mean, your post implies that you expect consideration from raggies but I doubt you will find any such duty in their colregs , nice one

 

[Hugo_Andreae]

To be fair that is not the only relevant bit by a long shot. The whole column is about motorboats having consideration for other boat users, particularly small sailing boats and those taking part in races. This is solely the last paragraph in which David puts a bit a balance to his comments by asking for some consideration in return. Given that this is David's column I think that's a perfectly valid comment for him to make. He never claims that a planing boat makes less wash when it's planing than at true displacement speed (he actually acknowledges it) but it's entirely fair to point out that sometimes it's actually less disruptive to pass at speed. Obviously it all depends on the precise circumstances/distance from the boat/hull shape and size, navigational restrictions etc but that wouldn't really make for a snappy column. These type of opinion pieces are meant to cause a certain amount of debate anyway, so as far as I'm concerned it's served its purpose well!

 

[paultallett]

I could imagine : "they don't have right of way as they tack across the channel"

If you look at the rules - 9 d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow passage or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.

If you are in an unknown area you will def follow the fairway. A local yacht however may know you are NOT restricted to the fairway only - and behave in a way which cause a problemto you. On the other side if he with his draft of say 3 meters can cross the fairway without a problem so can a Mobo with less draft, and its hard to see him violating the rule.

++

As soon as any boat starts moving through the water it starts building up a wave. The biggest wave in displacement is when the Displacement speed has arrived, and a displacement boat will hardly be able to increase the speed further. The boat has one big wave at the bow and another at the stern.

SD/Planning boats passing the displacement speed will dig an even bigger hole - imagine the bow wave still there and the stern wave moving further behind the boat. Imagine also increasing the speed further and when the boat is fully planing it has moved up on the bow wave. The wave may be different but its still there - and look behind you (remember the thread show us your wake shot ). Pass your dinghy with 25 knots with a 40' planing boat, and see what happens - check the same with 8 knots. The kids in the small dingy may be thrown out with planning speed as the impact is severe, but with 8 knots the kids may still find it 'funny' to be onboard.

Ofcourse we can not compate a small dinghy with a big yacht, but its simply not fair to pass close to anybody at full planing speed - because "you cant hear them complaining"

We do produce waves and safety at sea is not just your own safety. Its also a matter of responsibility. You can not avoid waves - irrespective of which speed you do, but you can also be the nice guy



and I didnt want to participate in another fight

Spot on.....

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I could imagine : "they don't have right of way as they tack across the channel"

If you look at the rules - 9 d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow passage or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.

Actually I think the crucial one is Rule 9 a) which requires a vessel proceeding along a narrow channel or fairway to proceed as close as possible to the limit of the channel on their starboard side
This applies equally to sailing yachts as it does to motor boats. I was once helming my motor boat out of the Hamble River on the starboard side of the narrow channel to the sea and a yacht came tacking up the channel towards me. I happened to have onboard a Yachtmaster Examiner called Robert Avis (sadly now RIP) who was giving me tuition for my Yachtmaster exam. I saw that there was a potential collision situation with the yacht so I went to change course but Robert ordered me to remain on course on the starboard side of the channel until it was clear that there was going to be a collision with the yacht whereupon he allowed me to change course to avoid it. We got the usual jeers and abuse from the crew of the yacht whereupon Robert hailed them on the VHF and asked to speak to the skipper. Now Robert was ex Royal Navy so he was well used to giving dressing downs to subordinates and, once he had introduced himself as a Yachtmaster Examiner and ex RN Commander, he proceeded to lecture the skipper of this yacht in the finer points of the ColRegs for several minutes after which the skipper of the yacht apologised profusely. It was delicious
So sailing yachts do NOT have a God given right to tack in a narrow channel or fairway and they must respect the ColRegs like any other boat. David Marsh is absolutely right in what he said