Dangerous foiling moth 'pilot' in Portland.

The only really memorable and quite disturbing incident I've had with a racing fleet was just outside Portland.
I had just left Weymouth harbour and was undersail in my Westerly Konsort. My passage plan was to head South East (ish) staying outside St Albans race and to make as much use of wind and tide to get back to Poole.
We were approached by an orange rib and asked our intentions, I was heading in the direction of a dinghy race approximately a mile ahead. "But there's a race going on" said man in rib. I explained I had a rudder and so did they. He then positioned his rib and forced me to alter course and wouldn't give me a chance to alter any where near my intended course. A while later he returned at speed at close quarters in a manoeuvre that seemed to show he had won.
At the time I wasn't sure if I was in the wrong so didn't pursue it. But if the same thing happened today, I'd complain to whoever wanted to listen.
If this attitude displayed towards other sailors under sail, what on earth do they think is acceptable?
I've drawn my own conclusions based on the above and have every sympathy for the OP
 
colhel said:
The only really memorable and quite disturbing incident I've had with a racing fleet was just outside Portland.
I had just left Weymouth harbour and was undersail in my Westerly Konsort. My passage plan was to head South East (ish) staying outside St Albans race and to make as much use of wind and tide to get back to Poole.
We were approached by an orange rib and asked our intentions, I was heading in the direction of a dinghy race approximately a mile ahead. "But there's a race going on" said man in rib. I explained I had a rudder and so did they. He then positioned his rib and forced me to alter course and wouldn't give me a chance to alter any where near my intended course. A while later he returned at speed at close quarters in a manoeuvre that seemed to show he had won.
At the time I wasn't sure if I was in the wrong so didn't pursue it. But if the same thing happened today, I'd complain to whoever wanted to listen.
If this attitude displayed towards other sailors under sail, what on earth do they think is acceptable?
I've drawn my own conclusions based on the above and have every sympathy for the OP
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TBH, when you’ve got a whole ocean, why would you want the hassle of sailing through a racing fleet? The reason they don’t like you near is not the colregs, everyone should be obeying those. It’s your wind shadow, and it’s capricious effects on the boats down your apparent wind. And the possibility that you’re offering external assistance to a mate, of course.
 
Chiara’s slave said:
TBH, when you’ve got a whole ocean, why would you want the hassle of sailing through a racing fleet? The reason they don’t like you near is not the colregs, everyone should be obeying those. It’s your wind shadow, and it’s capricious effects on the boats down your apparent wind. And the possibility that you’re offering external assistance to a mate, of course.
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Then they should use some legal mechanism to "close" those waters except to the race. Its what happens for major cycle races, marathons etc. The idea that because you want to sail in circles rather than go from A-B would give you priority over the person trying to take the shortest route to their destination is ridiculous.
 
ylop said:
Then they should use some legal mechanism to "close" those waters except to the race. Its what happens for major cycle races, marathons etc. The idea that because you want to sail in circles rather than go from A-B would give you priority over the person trying to take the shortest route to their destination is ridiculous.
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I do think the RIB driver sounds as if he went over the top. Though I now rather suspect that you probably wound him up by pushing your right to sail wherever you liked, and F the racers.
 
Rhen
Chiara’s slave said:
I do think the RIB driver sounds as if he went over the top. Though I now rather suspect that you probably wound him up by pushing your right to sail wherever you liked, and F the racers.
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Not at all. I backed down. The race was about a mike ahead. A Westerly Konsort isn't the best of sailing boats. My passage plan was to stay off shore outside the race and to enjoy the sail. It turned out due to wind and tide a completely different route, with the engine on. I don't expect everyone to agree or believe what I said, but to say you suspect I somehow was pushing my right to sail with the accusation I was bring deliberately antagonising, isn't on
 
colhel said:
The only really memorable and quite disturbing incident I've had with a racing fleet was just outside Portland.
I had just left Weymouth harbour and was undersail in my Westerly Konsort. My passage plan was to head South East (ish) staying outside St Albans race and to make as much use of wind and tide to get back to Poole.
We were approached by an orange rib and asked our intentions, I was heading in the direction of a dinghy race approximately a mile ahead. "But there's a race going on" said man in rib.
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Everything perfectly fine so far.

I explained I had a rudder and so did they.
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This can be interpreted to be a wind up. And was probably not the best way to continue the conversation.

I would have asked, what would be my best option to get to my destination without too much of a detour and without interfering with the race fleet.

He then positioned his rib and forced me to alter course and wouldn't give me a chance to alter any where near my intended course.
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I don't understand. You were under sail? You altered course for a soft inflatable? I would not have altered course in such circumstances.

Of course, if he was actually in contact with your boat and really forcing you off course , then that is unacceptable behaviour and should be reported.

A while later he returned at speed at close quarters in a manoeuvre that seemed to show he had won.
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Childish.

But any chance you might be over interpreting things?

At the time I wasn't sure if I was in the wrong so didn't pursue it. But if the same thing happened today, I'd complain to whoever wanted to listen.
If this attitude displayed towards other sailors under sail, what on earth do they think is acceptable?
I've drawn my own conclusions based on the above and have every sympathy for the OP
Click to expand...
Bad behaviour should be reported.
 
Chiara’s slave said:
I do think the RIB driver sounds as if he went over the top. Though I now rather suspect that you probably wound him up by pushing your right to sail wherever you liked, and F the racers.
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I think you may have quoted someone else thinking it was me...
However if you read (send believe) how I described the actions of the rib driver, my and my own actions (ie, did as I was told/forced to do) how my respons if anything, was (too) timid.
 
@westernman
me stating we had rudders was merely pointing out that we should all have control, obviously there was more conversation which I can't remember (I can remember saying about the rudders).
I altered course for a small rib because I did feel intimidated. Our engine was off, we were undersail and too far away to have any influence on the race. If there's something I've explained poorly, I'll try and clarify
 
If you were nowhere near the race area, what caused one of the safety boats to waste his time with a boat that wasn’t interfering? He is supposed to be supporting the fleet, closely.
 
Just to add. Reporting or complaining about any issue or disagreement on the sea, for me adds another level of anxiety. When you consider, who do you report the incident too?, are you prepared to follow it up to an outcome? I was out sailing with a couple of buddies escaping work for the weekend. Tbh unless any damage or injury is caused, what's the point of introducing a cloud over the weekend? Yes this thread brought the incident to the surface after 9 years. The reason I've never mentioned it before on here is I'm aware I'm only telling you my version, though I can assure you I firmly believe it to be an accurate recollection of events and also I'd be (rightly perhaps) having to defend my own actions. As has been said so many times, we boat to enjoy ourselves not get wrapped up in arguments.
 
Quite like this bye-law in Falmouth:
The master of a small vessel on the occasion of any boat race, regatta, championship race, public procession or any other occasion when a number of small vessels are assembled therein shall not permit his small vessel to pass therein so as to obstruct, impede or interfere with the boat race, regatta, championship race or procession, or endanger the safety of persons assembling in the harbour, or prevent the maintenance of order therein, and the master of a small vessel shall observe the directions of the Harbour Master or other persons authorised by the Commissioners to superintend the execution of this bye-law.
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Does appear to be a bit of a something over nothing discussion.

In my opinion, neither cruisers nor racers have any 'rights' over the water, but there is a duty to be courteous to other water users. So, racers can't blockade a port across the entire channel and shoulld give way when required by COLREGS; cruisers out of courtesy should make a small detour around a cluster of boats.
The analogy I usually use is a football game in a park. If the footballers take over the entire park stopping anyone else from using it, that's not on. If you want a picnic in the sun, then plonking yourself in the middle of a kickabout just because you can, when there's ample room around otherwise is just a bit of an ahole move.

Life's too short to get too bent out of shape about how others have fun.
 
DFL1010 said:
If you want a picnic in the sun, then plonking yourself in the middle of a kickabout just because you can, when there's ample room around otherwise is just a bit of an ahole move.
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I can't remember the exact conditions, but if I'm sailing in a South East direction, and I had to motor to make progress East. What solution is fair and good manners to all? Also as I said I didn't want or need to impact the race, it was still a way off and I would rather take avoiding action than get tangled up in it. Like I said, my version of events may seem exaggerated and I can only give my version as I saw it, but I feel I'm experienced and confident enough to say this is an accurate account
 
There is probably one guy in a luxury car complaining that the Monte Carlo Police Service is stopping him from taking his usual Sunday drive round the bay this weekend.

I've been that guy in a RIB tasked with keeping an area of water clear for a world championship, or for big boat races, it's not easy, and requires some co-operation from passing yachts / fishing boats / commercial vessels. These events are to the benefit of the service industries and tourist sector of the areas they are held. Most skippers stress levels increase when we trying to manoeuvre into verbal communications range, often the hackles are raised and it triggers an aggressive response, it is not the intention of the guard boat operator to cause stress, they are just trying to impart information to mutual advantage. There is often one wally who needs to cut across the entire fleet, looking neither left nor right, we will in this case escort the wally for the safety of the wally and the competitors, safety is our primary task, often we have a fleet of minors to protect, or are tasked with preventing 100 ton boats from running you over, or colliding with each other while avoiding you.

I've been the guy who's job is keeping boats out of marine construction sites, or away from active warships, etc, you might not want to be told where you can't go as captain of your own ship, never the less, the person in the guard boat is just trying to pass information to keep everyone safe, again communications between vessels at sea is always tricky.

But please, accept these guys have a job to do, just like the traffic warden, do you really want to be the guy who causes 300 athletes to standby for an hour, freezing their buts off, their racing suspended or thrown out, so you can stick to your passage plan? Or be the guy who suspends a job costing 15 million a day, just so you can take your usual shortcut? If you keep an ear on CH 16, and transmit on AIS, we can often communicate with you from a less stressful distance, to the benefit of everyone, most cruising boats don't. Read the local bylaws. Keep your charts up to date. Check your local notices to mariners. Keep your eyes open. (stay sober).

As for the Moths, I'm also sometimes a guy racing a lightweight boat sailing at unbelievable speeds against other lightweight fast boats. While most of my attention is on the boats I'm racing, I'm not going to tangle with anyone not in my race, as I'll lose, I'll lose the race, I'll lose my boat, I'll lose my insurance. If I do mis-calculate and run into you, don't worry, you won't even feel the bump. To me, when I'm racing, you are a traffic cone, an almost static obstacle, if you're a motor boat, just hold your course and speed (we would appreciate you slowing to no wake speed before approaching the fleet, but we don't expect it), if you are a sailing cruising boat, we don't necessarily expect you to know the IRPCS, but we mostly will, and respect them (and the local bylaws), and again, will avoid you. If you pop up where we are starting or coming together to round a mark, all bets are off, we won't hit you, but we will only begrudgingly give you an inch of clearance, and there may be some shouting. Sorry.
 
For the OP. If you are concerned and believe the behaviour of the moth could cause distress then submit an anonymous report here.

This type of anonymous reporting is normal in aviation but it's quite new in the maritime world. It is an excellent safety tool.


As for moths zipping around in their gravity defying paths, I love it and they can buzz me anytime!
 
jlavery said:
Seaplanes should keep out of everyone's way - it's in the colregs. I checked yesterday, having watched a seaplane land behind a yacht as it approached Craighouse on Jura.
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I am not sure the rules between seaplanes, planes, hovercraft and helicopters.
I was not asked about this stuff for my Coastal Kipper certificate.
 
ProMariner said:
There is probably one guy in a luxury car complaining that the Monte Carlo Police Service is stopping him from taking his usual Sunday drive round the bay this weekend.

I've been that guy in a RIB tasked with keeping an area of water clear for a world championship, or for big boat races, it's not easy, and requires some co-operation from passing yachts / fishing boats / commercial vessels. These events are to the benefit of the service industries and tourist sector of the areas they are held. Most skippers stress levels increase when we trying to manoeuvre into verbal communications range, often the hackles are raised and it triggers an aggressive response, it is not the intention of the guard boat operator to cause stress, they are just trying to impart information to mutual advantage. There is often one wally who needs to cut across the entire fleet, looking neither left nor right, we will in this case escort the wally for the safety of the wally and the competitors, safety is our primary task, often we have a fleet of minors to protect, or are tasked with preventing 100 ton boats from running you over, or colliding with each other while avoiding you.

I've been the guy who's job is keeping boats out of marine construction sites, or away from active warships, etc, you might not want to be told where you can't go as captain of your own ship, never the less, the person in the guard boat is just trying to pass information to keep everyone safe, again communications between vessels at sea is always tricky.

But please, accept these guys have a job to do, just like the traffic warden, do you really want to be the guy who causes 300 athletes to standby for an hour, freezing their buts off, their racing suspended or thrown out, so you can stick to your passage plan? Or be the guy who suspends a job costing 15 million a day, just so you can take your usual shortcut? If you keep an ear on CH 16, and transmit on AIS, we can often communicate with you from a less stressful distance, to the benefit of everyone, most cruising boats don't. Read the local bylaws. Keep your charts up to date. Check your local notices to mariners. Keep your eyes open. (stay sober).

As for the Moths, I'm also sometimes a guy racing a lightweight boat sailing at unbelievable speeds against other lightweight fast boats. While most of my attention is on the boats I'm racing, I'm not going to tangle with anyone not in my race, as I'll lose, I'll lose the race, I'll lose my boat, I'll lose my insurance. If I do mis-calculate and run into you, don't worry, you won't even feel the bump. To me, when I'm racing, you are a traffic cone, an almost static obstacle, if you're a motor boat, just hold your course and speed (we would appreciate you slowing to no wake speed before approaching the fleet, but we don't expect it), if you are a sailing cruising boat, we don't necessarily expect you to know the IRPCS, but we mostly will, and respect them (and the local bylaws), and again, will avoid you. If you pop up where we are starting or coming together to round a mark, all bets are off, we won't hit you, but we will only begrudgingly give you an inch of clearance, and there may be some shouting. Sorry.
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I’ve done that job for regattas on a strictly amateur basis, plus been the racer on many more. The nightmare of the ‘stand on regardless, Starboard tack’ cruiser is ever present, especially in Cowes Week. Last year one sailed on a broad reach over the start line, about a minute before the gun. It’s a tiny minority, fortunately. 99% of cruising sailors are kind, considerate types who like to let the kids have fun. I guess most of them have been there themselves.
 
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