DAKA! I need your advice, col regs question

[Sans Bateau]

I'm motoring out of our berth, working my way down between the two pontoons to the channel to take me out of the marina. I'm keeping a good look out as there are a few boats moving, although it is mid week. I can see my exit is clear, so turn to port into the channel, where I can see another boat coming towards me, I instinctively turn to Stbd to give them plenty of room port/port. As I am doing so, the boat coming towards me also turns to the same side, his port!!! I stand on, but in good time realise he is not moving so I turn to my port, there is no room to stbd!!

As we pass I call out "sorry about that, I was sure boats had to pass port to port". Now I know that was rather sarcastic, and probably the wrong thing to say, but I dd not want to rant at the helm.

What now appeared to be the angry owner/skipper was taking control and reversing off the mud, from a very sheepish looking 'driver', whilst at the same time he called back to me "yes it is port to port, but only in a channel!!"

Now do I need some education here? Is there a new set of col regs I haven't seen? Should I now adopt the 'driving like a car' rules when in a marina?

 

[photodog]

"so turn to port into the channel"



But you were in a channel.... so that was the right thing to do....



(puts feet up to watch developments...)

 

[Sans Bateau]

"so turn to port into the channel"



But you were in a channel.... so that was the right thing to do....



(puts feet up to watch developments...)

You can see why I'm puzzled!!

 

[Elessar]

"yes it is port to port, but only in a channel!!"

Very cool of you not responding to that! What a berk, serves him right going aground though.

 

[fireball]

I hope you offered daka a tow off after all he was expecting you 2 keep clear!

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

Does the highway code apply in an NCP car park? I suppose in theory it does just like the colregs (as modified by the harbour authority) will apply in a marina. But the reality is that people use common sense and the mk1 eyeball to decide which is the best way to go.

The legalities only ever apply when you get to court. Until then, like all laws, they are for the guidance of the wise and the obedience of fools.

 

[snowleopard]

Now do I need some education here? Is there a new set of col regs I haven't seen? Should I now adopt the 'driving like a car' rules when in a marina?

I hope you find an answer to that question because I also need to know.

Last time I went out I was motoring down the creek from my mooring - there is a large area of shallow water and one winding deep water channel with no markings. As I approached a left hand turn in the channel a mobo was coming the other way, i.e. approaching from my port side. As I came to the corner he turned a little to starboard but not enough to keep clear of me. I turned to starboard to clear him before making my turn to port to follow the channel. Eventually we passed port to port as usual but once past, he starts screaming "w@nker" at me. I have no idea what he thought I had done or what he imagined the rules to be.

Another situation I meet fairly frequently with small boats on the river is that I am following the starboard side of the channel and meet them head-on. As per col regs I turn to starboard to pass port to port and they turn the same way, usually ending up with the same sort of abuse.

 

[CelebrityScandel]

The rule in narrow channels is that one is to keep as far as practicable to the starboard side of the channel. While the consequence of that is that vessels pass port to port that is not what the rule says. The requirement is to keep to the starboard side of the channel as far as is practicable. Also, when crossing a narrow channel the boat crossing shall not impede a vessel in the channel.

It seems that neither you nor the other boat were following the starboard side of the channel rule (you stated that you were able to turn to starboard to pass port to port so seems that you were not following the rule) and that led to the encounter with both boats equally at fault. Furthermore you turned to port into the channel so you crossed it; if you encountered the other boat within a short distance after turning into the channel and you were not on the starboard side of the channel as he approached you then you were likely further at fault for impeding the other vessel if he could not navigate outside the channel (as he went aground, I take it on his port side of the channel, and assuming the same restriction existed for him on his starboard side of the channel, seems he likely could not).

As the encounter seems to have taken place with both boats in the wrong I would not like to say who MOST in the wrong when it came to taking avoiding action as it would depend very much on the particular circumstances. If you impeded him by crossing the channel and not being to the starboard side of it as he neared passing you ie you impeded him, then you would then likely be the boat found most in the worng in the events leading up to the encounter.

That is my interpretation but I suspect it is a correct one if my interpetation of how you describe the situation is correct.

 

[Blue5]

Col Regs

Eventually we passed port to port as usual but once past, he starts screaming "w@nker" at me. I have no idea what he thought I had done or what he imagined the rules to be.

Dont complain man, thats pretty much the norm for the small boat channel into Portsmouth except we have to navigate the isolated danger mark in the form of "harbour patrol" as well

 

[Sans Bateau]

The rule in narrow channels is that one is to keep as far as practicable to the starboard side of the channel. While the consequence of that is that vessels pass port to port that is not what the rule says. The requirement is to keep to the starboard side of the channel as far as is practicable. Also, when crossing a narrow channel the boat crossing shall not impede a vessel in the channel.

It seems that neither you nor the other boat were following the starboard side of the channel rule (you stated that you were able to turn to starboard to pass port to port so seems that you were not following the rule) and that led to the encounter with both boats equally at fault. Furthermore you turned to port into the channel so you crossed it; if you encountered the other boat within a short distance after turning into the channel and you were not on the starboard side of the channel as he approached you then you were likely further at fault for impeding the other vessel if he could not navigate outside the channel (as he went aground, I take it on his port side of the channel, and assuming the same restriction existed for him on his starboard side of the channel, seems he likely could not).

As the encounter seems to have taken place with both boats in the wrong I would not like to say who MOST in the wrong when it came to taking avoiding action as it would depend very much on the particular circumstances. If you impeded him by crossing the channel and not being to the starboard side of it as he neared passing you ie you impeded him, then you would then likely be the boat found most in the worng in the events leading up to the encounter.

That is my interpretation but I suspect it is a correct one if my interpetation of how you describe the situation is correct.

Now here we have a clear example of how these situations unfold. My dear man you clearly have not understood the description of the incident (whilst others have).

For your sake, I will expand, this was in the confines of the marina, boats are entering and leaving the channel ALL the time, once in the channel I assumed a position to my stbd, only moving FURTHER to stbd to pass the approaching vessel.

By chance it wasnt you that went on the mud was it?

 

[snowleopard]

Now here we have a clear example of how these situations unfold. My dear man you clearly have not understood the description of the incident (whilst others have).

Doesn't it get confusing when the post doesn't say who it is replying to. He was actually replying to me (look in hybrid view). In fact your answer was pretty much on the money anyway as he hadn't understood my post either (I moved into shallower water to avoid the other boat - an option not available in a marina of course).

Priorities in a marina can get confused, for example last time I was sailing with Carolwildbird she was coming down one of the aisles in the marina when another boat came across the end of the aisle, approaching us from port and either not seeing or ignoring us so we had to do a crash stop. According to colregs we were in the right but if it had been a road he would have had the right of way being on the 'main' road.

You have to guess whether the other skipper is working to col regs, some other set of rules of his own invention or just 'everyone has to give way to me' and be prepared for all eventualities.

 

[oceanfroggie]

I'd guess the inexperienced temporary helm went into car mode and instinctively "drove" to the left hand side of the channel. Skipper returning to deck embarressed and blustered out the bit about channel.

It was a channel and normal colregs apply, but the best reg of all is common sense and if a word removedword removedword removedword removed does the wrong thing then just go around them or the other side. I liked the controlled scarcasim.

 

[CelebrityScandel]

Snowleopard I was replying to Galadriel in flat mode - I guess people will get used to the difference in forum format after a while, just as they are on other similarly formated forums.

Galadriel, thank you for your referring to me as "my dear man" but I will have to disappoint you in that I am not of the sexual persuasion you seem to desire (unless I am mistaken in assuming that you are a male and you are in fact a beautiful woman). Perhaps another forumite can offer their services to you in that matter.

You now make the plea "I will expand, this was in the confines of the marina, boats are entering and leaving the channel ALL the time".

Whether you are in a marina or not the collision rules apply and you will find in some of the world's marinas there are reminder notices to that effect. Also, the fact that there are boats entering or leaving all the time does not have any precedence over the rules. It also does not matter whether a narrow channel is defined by marina or other structures or by shallows.

In both posts you make it clear the incident occurred in a channel, also in your original post you stated "I can see another boat coming towards me, I instinctively turn to Stbd to give them plenty of room port/port" and you now add in your response to me your "only moving FURTHER to stbd to pass the approaching vessel." That is you were not proceeding as far as practicably possible to your starboard side of the channel as you proceeded along it and it now seems that you were so far away from doing so that you not only were able to move to your starboard when you first saw the other boat coming but were able to move even further to your starboard again when you saw that you had to take evasive action.

As I said once the evasive actions were forced I would not like to comment on fault as that would depend very much on the detail of the situation when those actions were forced. However, up until that time it seems very clear now with your response that both you and the power boat were in the wrong. If both of you had been proceeding as the rule requires the situation would never have arisen. If you had been proceeding as far as practicable to your starboard side one could even conjecture that the other boat would never have made his first turn to port.

I can understand how uncomfortable you seem to feel finding yourself in the situation of being jointly responsible with a power boat skipper for the situation that you found yourself in. However, I suggest that you have a look at the narrow channel rule and you will find that it is so. You will see that it says nothing whatsoever about passing port to port as you twice stated in your first post was your only expectation of your responsibility. You will find that it also says nothing about only having to keep as far as practicable to your starboard side of the channel when you see another boat coming the other way, you are obliged to keep as far as practicable to the starboard side when proceeding along it whether you can see another boat coming or not.

 

[Sans Bateau]

CelebrityScandel.

See your just not reading what I am saying are you? Where did I mention what type of boat it was? Eh? Where did I say it was a power boat? The type of boat involved matters not a jot!

I'm not sure if you are trying to be awkward, trolling or just trying to put your own interpretation on the situation, and the col regs, which I WAS adhering to!!! If you really really want to be so picky, then YES I was on the port side of the channel! I HAD to be for a few seconds as I entered the channel from the PORT SIDE!!!!!!!! I had to cross the port side to get to the Stbd side and we are referring to a channel wide enough, but only just wide enough for two boats to pass. Or do you in your interpretation see that as a col regs infringement? Perhaps you could tell us how YOU would do it!!!

Once again I moved as far as practicable to the Stbd side IN GOOD TIME!!!! When I could see that the other vessel was not adhering to the col regs, I took POSITIVE EVADING ACTION!!! Now what should I have done (in YOUR opinion)??

Like all the other posters, OceanFroggie has got the picture, hes right, I suspect the helm was a novice, however that does not absolve him from following colregs, its up to the skipper to point out such a fundamental rule, especially maneuvering in confined space.

 

[Cruiser2B]

You will see that it says nothing whatsoever about passing port to port as you twice stated in your first post was your only expectation of your responsibility. You will find that it also says nothing about only having to keep as far as practicable to your starboard side of the channel when you see another boat coming the other way, you are obliged to keep as far as practicable to the starboard side when proceeding along it whether you can see another boat coming or not.

Colregs - "Rule 14 (a) When two power-driven vessels are meeting on reciprocal or nearly reciprocal courses so as to involve risk of collision, each shall alter her course to starboard so that each shall pass on the port side of the other."

Rule 9 does not require one to skirt the very limit of the navigable water - it states as far to starboard as is SAFE and PRACTICABLE. Since Rule 14 requires an alteration to stbd, then it seems fair to allow some room to starboard in a channel in case one will need to alter. Unless the marina/harbour in question has some other rule that would apply, then Galadriel was in the right.

 

[CelebrityScandel]

Cruiser2B - "it states as far to starboard as is SAFE and PRACTICABLE.". I did not say anything different so you and I agree on that. However, your reference to the rule passing port to port does not negate the responsibility under the Narrow Channel rule as you claim it does - I think a little thought would show that if you were correct then the narrow channel rule would have little or no purpose. The adherance to the narrow channel rule is particularly important in marinas as visibility may be obstructed for either oneself or for other boats.

Galadriel - I understand your description of the events very well and everything you keep adding strengthens the clarity of my understanding. You are now even conceding that you drove up the port side of the channel, an action that is not necessary when turning to port into a channel (as you claim it is) except, of course, in the event one incorrectly enters the channel before the way is clear. That is one entered it to cross (and turn when across or execute the turn while crossing if ones boat's advance in the turn requires that) when one would impede vessels within the channel and one is forced to take evasive action up the port side. Again, one would be a fault if that was the situation. Refer to the narrow channel rule.

Referring back to your earlier question. No it wasn't us you helped put on the mud. You would have seen us coming for sure and I suspect you would have given us a very wide berth, all that assuming that we could fit in your marina and that my boat was currently in the UK, which it is not .

Perhaps you have learnt something out of this but I suspect not so no more to say on the matter.

 

[Cruiser2B]

CelebrityScandel(sic) - when entering or leaving a marina where there are boats berthed close to port and starboard, it is customary to centre the channel, moving to favour your starboard side only if necessary to pass another vessel. This is what sensible people do and is well within the intent of the Rules. I didn't claim that Rule 14 negates Rule 9 - I was pointing out that while Rule 9 does not specify a port/port passing, Rule 14 does and that meeting a vessel on a reciprocal course in a narrow channel pretty much puts you in a head-on situation. You are aware that Rule 14, and most of the other rules still have effect in a narrow channel, don't you?

PS - Scandal is spelled with an 'a'.

 

[CelebrityScandel]

CelebrityScandel(sic) - when entering or leaving a marina where there are boats berthed close to port and starboard, it is customary to centre the channel, moving to favour your starboard side only if necessary to pass another vessel. This is what sensible people do and is well within the intent of the Rules....

....PS - Scandal is spelled with an 'a'.

It may be customary in some places but that does not place the behaviour within the rules. For example, it also seems to be customary in some places for sail boats motor sailing to consider themselves entitled to sailing vessel rights too, but that does not put such behaviour within the rules; well, perhaps you think it does?

There is nothing to stop one centring a channel but if one does so and a conflict results, as it has in the case of the original poster, regardless of the rights and wrongs of the other vessel one is also at fault. Also, as I said before, it may be that the boat coming the other way would not have turned to port if the original poster had been correctly fully to his own starboard side as the other boat would have seen no gap to go through.

It now seems that the original poster had incorrectly turned onto his port side of the channel as he entered it - maybe that confused the oncoming boat causing him to turn to port only to find that the original poster was now apparantly changing his mind and moving to the starboard side across him and impeding him. That just for purposes of example and only stated to serve to show how confusion can be propagated by incorrect behaviours in channels. But if that is what actually happened then the original poster would likely be found to have been the one mostly at fault.

Yes. I am well aware how the word "scandal" is spelt but it is strange to find someone taking it upon themselves to tell another that their name is spelt incorrectly. Do you make a habit of telling people how they should spell their own names as that would seem to be very strange behaviour to me. But if that is what you do you will find plenty of fodder for that habit on both this forum and most others.

With more forum experience you will find that many users have user names unconventionally spelt and that may be for one of many reasons. A simple and common example being that the conventional spelling of their preferred user name has already been taken by another user on one or another of the forums upon which they wish to use that name so they change the spelling to something close for universal forum use (that is not my own reason however). But your habit must be catchy because I cannot resist asking if you know that your user name should be correctly spelt as "CruisertoBe"?

Just out of interest do you go around telling the many people who have unconventional spellings on their vanity car plates that they have spelled their name or whatever incorrectly? Am just interested if that is so.

 

[Elessar]

You are now even conceding that you drove up the port side of the channel

he did not.

He said he crossed it to get to the sbd side. Geladriel's Etap is a lovely boat but I don't think even it can either fly or teleport which you seem to think essential.

You clearly have a problem with comprehension and/or enjoy being obtuse.

Even if Galadriel was to port of centre (which he wasn't according to his post, but with a cross wind or current MAY be as far to stbd as is safe) the other boat was definately wrong alter course to port. If (which, reiterated for CS, he was not) he was so far to port that the other boat had no choice but to turn to port to avoid a collision then two short hoots to indicate his intention should have been considered essential.

 

[Searush]

Cor, people do get real tetchy on colreg posts don't they? What has happened to Daka? I presume he is out there boating and enjoying himself. I wish I was . . .