Cutter rigs.

Allan

Allan

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 Mar 2004
Messages
4,695
Location
Lymington
Visit site
I'm interested in learning more about cutter rigs. The background is I'm considering buying a small long keeled boat for some extended cruising. A cutter rig with the staysail being left on as a storm sail, if/when the weather gets up, seems like a good plan. Using windvane steering requires the sails to be as balanced as possible, does adding an inner sail affect this? Is there anything else to learn about this subject? How does it affect windward performance?
Allan
 
Here's some of my understanding of this....

I have a 27' long-keel single-spreader boat that is being refitted to incorporate an inner stay ( 95% height ) on which to fit a smallish, heavier-cloth jib or Solent, set on a furler aft of the masthead genoa. Sailmakers and riggers agree this should provide a more effective sailplan, in stronger winds, than relying on a part-furled genoa. Due to my age, infirmity and cussedness, both those sails will be set on furlers.

That arrangement necessitates 'beefing up' the foredeck to carry the loads from this new stay down into the structure - and not 'lift the deck'.

That leaves the question of setting a 'proper job' storm jib, for it is important that the much-reduced mainsail is balanced in heavy airs, so that the windvane is not battling against a severely imbalanced boat. Having consulted everywhere I can think of, I now intend to be able to set a small wire-luff storm jib 'free', tacked to the same deck fitting as the furling inner jib, and hoisted to a nose-fitting just above the spreaders. There are twin lowers P & S, and I 'anticipate' that runners will not be needed, although how the rig behaves remains to be seen.

I'm exploring options to permit that small storm jib to be hoisted 'rolled up' and then unfurled, after the fashion of an asymmetric spi. That should also permit the sail to be rolled away. My sailmaker agrees....
 
Many thanks for that, all very interesting and very similar to what I have in mind. Can I ask what boat you have? I'm thinking of something like a Contessa 26 or similar.
Allan
 
I did something similar a few years ago when sailing across the North Pacific in a Vancouver 27, a full-keel cutter.
I had a storm sail in place of the staysail during the entire crossing from Osaka to Victoria (72 days).

But that was only because I wasn't sailing to windward. A storm sail is too small and inefficient to sail into the wind.

To leave up the storm sail would be a strange arrangement given that it is the right sail maybe 1% of the time, if that. Only takes a moment to swap the staysail.

Didn't notice any affect on the windvane. In some conditions, the Vancouver was tricky to balance, but downwind was not one of them.
 
All in principle correct, however whatever you do, don't rely on hoisting a storm jib 'flying' ie not hanked on to a stay. Shock loads as it flogs half-hoisted will be horrendous in a real gale. If it's on a furler that would probably be OK.

My other comment is that on many boats a storm jib alone can be very effective: you'd think that it would unbalance the rig but as you'll be heeled a lot anyway the heel-induced weather helm will in practice remove the theoretical lee helm from area forward.
 
jwilson said:
All in principle correct, however whatever you do, don't rely on hoisting a storm jib 'flying' ie not hanked on to a stay. Shock loads as it flogs half-hoisted will be horrendous in a real gale. If it's on a furler that would probably be OK.

My other comment is that on many boats a storm jib alone can be very effective: you'd think that it would unbalance the rig but as you'll be heeled a lot anyway the heel-induced weather helm will in practice remove the theoretical lee helm from area forward.
Click to expand...

That’s been my experience, too.

I would not put the staysail on a roller. Because it is a smaller sail, and the stay is inboard, it’s pretty easy to use it hanked on. You can leave the storm staysail hanked on and lashed down beneath the working staysail if you foresee needing to use it or, even better, have the working staysail made with a deep reef so it becomes your storm headsail. That worked really well for me and saved space, cost, and time and effort on the foredeck.
 
Last edited:
Minn said:
That’s been my experience, too.

I would not put the staysail on a roller. Because it is a smaller sail, and the stay is inboard, it’s pretty easy to use it hanked on. You can leave the storm staysail hanked on and lashed down beneath the working staysail if you foresee needing to use it or, even better, have the working staysail made with a deep reef so it becomes your storm headsail. That worked really well for me and saved space, cost, and time and effort on the foredeck.
Click to expand...

:encouragement:

Similar setup on a 33', hanked on staysail with deep reef. Yet to use the reef though.

Love it, wind gets up then reefed main and staysail, all the force down low near the centre of the boat and no furling line to worry about. Kindle out and wait for it all to calm down again :)
 
I am thinking of setting up a similar arrangement on our LM27. It has very light roller furled genoa (the original 36 year old sail but hardly used as previous owner sadly mostly just motored. So as I keep going out in shite I want to be able to hank on a storm jib, or at least a smaller working jib. Running down wind I want twin headsails as easier to set than cruising chute, though I could fly the inner one free without an actual stay. Flying a storm jib free in bad weather is not safe or sound so a stay is needed for that. I might just use the beefy anchor cleats at the lower end as never need them when sailing.

95% seems about right and one can use kevlar rather than stainless steel wire to make it easier to move out of way when not in use. The stay I added to my Westerly Pentland (32ft) does hinder tacking so I think it desirable to have the stay movable. on that boat I backed up deck with beam underneath as best lower fixing point was too far forward of cabin edge and too far from strengthening of anchor cleat
 
Again, many thanks. The hanked on reefable sail sounds like a good idea. I'll look into that. Can I hear more about sailing a cutter rig in normal conditions? What is the best distance back for the inner stay? Is parallel best? Would running backstays be needed?
Allan
 
Mine cutter (designed not added) has check stays and seems to work. These are just aft of the other stays so they do not get in the way of anything, but because of their angle don't give the same sort of support as runners led to the stern. I use dyform for the check stays to keep stretch down and strength up. Genoa is on a short bow sprit - this is useful on a small boat as a bit of distance between the babystay and the forestay is quite useful in giving the genoa a chance of tacking with needing help.

I rig the staysail if it is breezy and the wind is forward of the beam. If nothing else it provides a good stiff balanced sail plan, and the knowledge that if the wind pipes up then the genoa can be rolled up, leaving a really useful plan up. The hank on jib with reefing points so sets well, so can be used in excess of 35kn.

It is said that cutters do not sail as close to windward as sloop.

Overall I like the options it gives, and would look for similar if changing boat.
 
If the top of stay is at 95% then probably not enough bending force to need running back stays, which are a nuisance and to some extent unsound in a serious blow. If you merely want to run storm/small jib instead of genoa or large staysail down wind on opposite side to genoa then you only need to get top fixing clear of furling genoa head plate.

If you want it parallel as in proper cutter rig then you must come down a bit but I would incline against running back stays. My old old boat had a fractional rig with no consideration of the top of mast backstay not balanced by the forestay a long way down the mast, so clearly a lot of native stiffness in any mast.

If you run them parallel then the inner sail is less blanketed by the foresail, but however the sheets need to go even further back behind the blocks for the foresai, so if you want true cutter there is a bit more to it.
 
oldmanofthehills said:
If you run them parallel then the inner sail is less blanketed by the foresail, but however the sheets need to go even further back behind the blocks for the foresai, so if you want true cutter there is a bit more to it.
Click to expand...
I'm happy to sort out the sheeting with either an extra car or even an extra track. Some of the answers above beg the question, apart from the storm/staysail/safety is a cutter rig a benefit or a hindrances?
Allan
 
oldmanofthehills said:
If you run them parallel then the inner sail is less blanketed by the foresail, but however the sheets need to go even further back behind the blocks for the foresai, so if you want true cutter there is a bit more to it.
Click to expand...
I'm happy to sort out the sheeting with either an extra car or even an extra track. Some of the answers above beg the question, apart from the storm/staysail/safety is a cutter rig a benefit or a hindrances?
Allan
 
The original ideas behind the thought of a cutter rig were twofold. One thing was to increase the flexibility and the other was to add an inner stay to increase the strength of the rig. I also thought a cutter rig was better to windward but this seems to be wrong. I thought having a a sail between genoa and main improved the airflow, enabling faster sailing to windward. Is this wrong?
As far as sheeting goes I'm happy to add more cars or even an extra track.
Allan
 
IF you're looking at fitting a staysail to a Contessa 26, or a Nich 26, the fore hatch is "in the way". If you want a "small" cutter, the Vancouver 27/8 is the way to go. Designed for it from the off. They are a bit slower and not as good on the wind from my experience, but now I'm getting on a bit myself, I'm looking enviously at the Vancouver.....
 
This is what you want, imho (“also available in smaller sizes”!)

Two spreader mast, inner forestay from upper spreaders, paralleling outer forestay, lands on foredeck ahead of forehatch, can be released if using Genoa, runners.

Set up the inner and the runners and the mast won’t think about panting fore and aft when pitching into a head sea.

 
Last edited:
The main advantage of cutter rig in the old days was to keep sail size manageable. This is less necessary now as materials are lighter, foresail is usually roller furling etc. The lovely and very expensive cutter in the above picture has sails much much larger than on my ancient 32ft or 27ft boats so maybe true cutter rig still useful for sail handling for them.

However the ability to carry storm or small working jib with the genoa furled is useful on all cruising boats, and as further aft of the bows its a safer and maybe drier working area. Similarly the ability to carry twin large headsails to goosewing down wind is helpful as it avoids using mainsail and thus avoids accidental gybes.

True cutter rig also enables you to carry more sail to windward or broadreach but it needs to be got right. Twin headsails of course means twin sets of jib sheets, so if used together as a "cutter" in brisk weather you need twin winches too.

If converting and trying to get true cutter rig with parallel luffs it might be best to add bowsprit for existing forestay/sail. (I added 6 ft of 2 inch admiralty steel bar to give 2ft of bowsprit, with of course bob stay, to get better canvasing and less weather helm on a 26ft macwester. It didnt really help my speed to windward as I couldnt get the stay far enough to stern to avoid sails being blanketed, so I never added twin winches cleats etc. )

Racers use twin grooved furling foils to get the same effect down wind but they mostly dont have grooves big enough to take the heavier luff ropes of cruising genoas. Racers also get storm foresails that clip round a furled genoa. They are expensive and short handed I wouldnt want to be fidling with strapping right up in the bows in a blow. A nice stay well back with suitable sail is a practical addition to a cruising yacht to get the same effect. I'd call it quasi cutter rig.
 
Allan said:
I'm interested in learning more about cutter rigs. The background is I'm considering buying a small long keeled boat for some extended cruising. A cutter rig with the staysail being left on as a storm sail, if/when the weather gets up, seems like a good plan. Using windvane steering requires the sails to be as balanced as possible, does adding an inner sail affect this? Is there anything else to learn about this subject? How does it affect windward performance?
Allan
Click to expand...
I think the difference between cutter and Solent rig needs clarifying. With a true cutter rig the genoa would be typically a high cut yankee. The two headsails would be flown together on a true cutter rig. A Solent rig has two headsails, normally on furlers but a lot closer together, say two feet apart. With a Solent rig you fly one sail or the other. The larger sail on the outer furler would typically be 130% genoa. The inner furler would house a working jib. The benefit of twin furlers, be it a cutter or Solent rig is not needing to go on deck in rising wind and sea conditions. With the Solent rig you can use runners that attach a long way up the mast since the inner furler is close to the out furler. It is often the case that one reef in the main or possibly two coincides with the attachment point for the runners so as you convert from large genoa to working jib you are likley to already have reefed the main and you dont have runners to clash with the mainsail. You can set the runners on both sides and forget them. Especially useful if you are short tacking into rising seas and wind.
 
This is my experience on 2 boats.
First boat was a 37 ft with self tack jib.
The self tack was a one hit wonder, perfect for winds 10 to 20 knots, would not reef efficiently and small down wind.
I fitted a second removal forestry close behind the main furling jib, on this I had hank on big Genoa for downwind and light wind .Storm sail or small jib , about 70% for up to about a force 8 used when self tack was to big. Above 35 knots I only ever went down or across the wind, the effort of beating into 40 knots never happened as always had sea room or a forecast that dictated what to do. Had a storm jib for racing regs. never fitted and no idea when you ever would.
This close set removable forestay appears to be known as Slutter, Solent or Close cutter depending on who you are; it was and still is about 200 mm behind the main forestay , you would never beat with both sails as too close together, wing on wing brilliant for downwind, that is with poled out on one side and other run off block on boom.
Second boat , old style 1980 , 46 foot. This has monster Genoa and removable inner.
The removable inner makes a good cutter rig, sailing in light airs into wind , if we hoist the cutter sail we gain .5 of a knot.
The removable inner is approx. 1/3 down the mast and has running back stays, it is recommended by the manufacturers that I use removable inner and runners above about 15 knots, depending on sea state.
This second boat I have not managed in any strong winds, but the plan is to use the hank on cutter sail and deep reef main.
On this second boat I have fitted a second inner forestay , just behind the main masthead original, on this I have a furling jib.
Downwind we can run poled 145% Genoa, jib on other side, main on same side as jib, gives good speed and easy to shorten sail.
My preferred sailing is offshore so many of my modifications reflect this.
If you do modify and fix a second forestay, getting a good strong point will be the challenge, first boat and also first try, it took 3 attempts to get the strength, a pumping wire will stretch very thick stainless. second boat I massively over engineered, but is working well. Basicly on a close cutter you need to tie the deck fixing to the existing chain plate

Simon
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top