Customs & Excise Raid Newtown Creek!

Re: Something else to bear in mind

HM Customs can gain access at anytime. They can seize your assets and arrive at a financial settlement, like a fine, for any "crimes" you may be guilty of. But here's the rub. Once they have seized your goods "in the name of the Queen", they can keep them. Even if you pay the fine. If you go to law it will take a long time and you may not win. If you do win you will find the return of your goods exceeding slow and charges for "storage" etc. might be quite high. It's generally agreed among the TIR haulage guys that there is no future in pissing of the Customs.

Their powers were given to them by the Royals to fight pretty desperate and murderous bands of pirates and wreckers. It's not really that long since they used to fill smugglers houses with shingle. So unless you want to get home and find your drives in your lounge keep them sweet.

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Re: Constitutional failure

I have no problem with authoritarian agents of the State going about their business to defend us in troubled times, but the situation with HM Customs and Excise illustrates a constitutional failure in this country.

If Britain had the benefit of a properly defined constitution equivalent to other modern states then the behaviour of HM C&E would qualify it as an illegal organisation staffed by thuggish outlaws.

Maybe the dictates of our new European overlords will trigger a review of their role.

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Re: Constitutional failure

Sorry Jonjo, I wouldn't get smart with French Customs either and certainly not American ones, Constitution or not.

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>
 
Re: Constitutional failure

I'm not against properly enforced 'powers', as long as they have a valid reason for applying them.
As with most law abiding citizens, I am more than happy to cooperate, but being boarded without good cause or reason cannot be right & anyway this could be done with more civility. The days of running sword/gun battles between Excise men & desperado smugglers are no longer with us.
Surely they should have some grounds or suspicions which would satisfy any magistrate - our 'village bobby' must & they are as much in the frontline against terrorists et al.

"being boarded at sea or indeed in harbour is not a wise time to start campaigning for your rights IMO," - you've just said it "your rights"! It appears so far, that we don't have any & when is "a wise time" to stand up for them?. Or is going 'belly up' the latest British Standard position? If so, my Granny will be turning in her grave.
I favour jonjo's argument, everyone in this society should be accountable & these guys appear not to be.

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With all the EEC regulations and the European Court aren't actions like this in cotravention of some European right? The EEC may have a number of faults but it always appears to be about the rights of the individual.

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Re: Constitutional failure

> I wouldn't get smart with French Customs

Nor would I in the field.

You raise an interesting point about US Customs. They have a clearly defined role of defending the boarders of the state.

The problem with HM C&E is they have a confused dual role that includes domestic sales tax collection. This leads to an institutional failure because C&E view all citizens as potential tax dodgers.

A junior US Customers officer manning the machine gun on a US Customers cutter understands his role, he has a job that does not require him to view most US citizens as potential criminals.

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Re: Something else to bear in mind

Too true - I was formerly the director of a company that was put out of business by HMC&E. They decided that I owed them VAT and so froze all the company assets until the bill was paid. For the record they were wrong and in fact I was owed a significant VAT refund.

The assets they froze included the company bank account which contained more than enough money to settle the disputed bill, but they refused even to let me do that.

Eventually I had to go to the high court twice to get things sorted out - I eventually got the assets released and the money HMC&E owed me in overpaid VAT refunded. Unfortunately that took about 2-3 months - you try keeping a company trading with all assets frozen. This is by no means a one off.

HMC&E have the greatest powers of any group in the country and are not subject to any effective controls.



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They do mostly need and have warrants, but it is often a case of one warrant "fits all". Some are old historical documents. They are not specific and do not expire.

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I reported somewhere on these boards a while back of our boarding between Ramsgate and Harwich in April. They came from a cutter, were very courteous and polite and (in the end) even unbent enough to make a (small) joke! On their right to take the boat apart - they came really to train someone and show him the 'nooks and crannies' of an ocean going yacht. I said 'oh god are you going to take us to bits out here?' To which the senior man replied ' no I have to have more of a reason - some evidence - to do that!'

The way the USCG behaving is far more draconian and intrusive than anything I have seen or heard here, even taking into account the extensive powers of HMCE. (Incidentally these powers have a very long history and cannot be laid at the doors of the current occupants of Downing Street - and they have also been used much more nastily in the past than they are today ...) American pals on bulletin boards and I have met cruising have told stories of interrogations and demands that are really unpleasant - by very heavily armed men.

Maybe YM or PBO could do a short guide on the rights of HMCE and of yachtsfolk - in my youth (protesting madly against closing mines/Council tax/Section 28 etc) we used to carry a 'bust card' which set out what you could/should do in the case of being arrested during a demo. Some equally succint and authorative guidance might alleviate some of the more worried forumites concerns!

<hr width=100% size=1>Sarah & Pip

www.greatlittleboats.com
UK & Ireland distributors of Swifgig
 
Re: It\'s nothing new

> And I think you, Sir, need a lesson in good manners

ALant rises some interesting points. I think you demonstrate bad manners with a conceited and pompous indirect response.

The State and the establishment are weak and I would vote for any political party that convinced me it had the wisdom and confidence to tackle crime and anti-social behaviour. Even so I question the mysterious and undocumented powers of HM C&E.

Are the citizens of any other 1st world country subject to an organization (secret services excepted) that has more powers than the police and military in peacetime mode?

Does any other 1st world country operate such a powerful agency that is tasked with policing and taxing the general population and yet is answerable to a ceremonial head of state?

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by jonjo on 17/10/2004 01:15 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
Blaming this government.

You wrote;

""The way the USCG behaving is far more draconian and intrusive ... (Incidentally these powers have a very long history and cannot be laid at the doors of the current occupants of Downing Street )-""

YES. They can. This government has given US Customs the right to board any British flagged vessel within 200 miles of US territory.

Was done 4 years ago.

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Re: It\'s nothing new

<And I think you, Sir, need a lesson in good manners before you preach on your rights as as an individual - nay, a subject.>
Clive, I would normally respond to this 'with all due respect', but in your case It would stick in my craw - I cannot decypher what the hell you are talking about! And how are you going to give anyone a lesson in 'good manners'? Where did the 'bad manners' insult come from? Please explain. Are you sure you are not being affected by your dayjob matter & talking a lot of it!!
Are you really suggesting that in a free country, we have no right to question & stand up for our rights? By the way, most of us think of ourselves as citizens, not 'subjects' (or would you prefer 'objects')

<I think you demonstrate bad manners with a conceited and pompous indirect response.>
Well said jonjo, couldn't have put it better myself.



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Re: It\'s nothing new

Alant,
I appologise unreservedly and in all humility and yes, jonjo is right too.
My last post was boerish in the extreme and quite uncalled for. I'm afraid I'd just got back from a party and shouldn't even have turned the computer on, let alone been let loose on the forum. That's no excuse, however, and again, I'm sorry.
I stand by my first post, though even that had a certain element of tongue in cheek but in the serious context of your thread I think tht Robin's opinion and advice is good.
I trust we e-correspond again in the forum.
Yours sincerely,

<hr width=100% size=1>Khyber
 
Re: It\'s nothing new

Alant - you need to be realistic. Whilst many, probably most, HMC&E men will be polite and pleasant, attempts to be formal in response could be seen as being uppity by an individual officer and might well invite an "I'll show him" response. After all, you are the "rich ba**rd" driving a boat that he may fancy but not be able to afford. On the other hand, he has power that you dont have. Its only natural for him to abuse his power a bit, just like plod does, to exact a small personal victory and a degree of revenge. The richer you are, the bigger the boat, the better the pleasure of showing you who is master!

And dont have the faintest hope of complaining and winning. Unless the misconduct is so gross that even his mates wont support him (and there will be a culture of looking after each other just like plod) it will be your word against theirs and you wont win.

The ironic thing is that these organisations can only really succeed with public support, but just as plod has done with the scameras, heavy handed HMC&E operations alienate the public and make them reluctant to help.

<hr width=100% size=1>this post is a personal opinion, and you should not base your actions on it.
 
Re: Late night postings

Some mornings I wake up and recall my final late night posting at YBW and think oh no.

When a particularly contentious Scuttlebutt debate is running I sometimes have to resort to breakfast TV in fear of the ensuring online battle and gory results.

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Re: Late night postings

I'll second that! The odd Saturday night beer and you feel the need to share your wisdom, prejudices and opinions with the rest of the human race. Trouble is, they're not really what you think. But posting in reasonable shades of grey is much less interesting than good old black and white. So its the blackest of black and the whitest of white every time.

Not only that, but you suddenly feel able to advise anyone on anything. Brain surgery? No problem! This is how you do it.

On which basis, I may as well apologise now for the next eruption, never mind the last one.



<hr width=100% size=1>this post is a personal opinion, and you should not base your actions on it.
 
Re: It\'s nothing new

Clive, no apology required, I have a high horse as well.
It's brought out some interesting comments though & the suggestion by Abigail regarding a YM article seems to have merit. How about a similar suggestion to Desmond Swayne MP for clarification of these powers - I think he's the peoples representative in your locale.

Birdseye, sorry, but I don't subscribe to the <the "rich ba**rd" driving a boat that he may fancy but not be able to afford.> theory.
These guys are still professionals & should never <abuse his power a bit>. We all suffer stress & sometimes a bit of envy, but this doesn't manifest itself in abuse of power, which everyone seems to agree is the expectation we have when dealing with individuals from HMCE.
I want to be sensible, civil & cooperative, but none of us like being told what to do unless given a reason (requested yes, told no). Since when are we assumed guilty & then have to prove ourselves innocent in the UK? This is a complete reversal of Common Law.



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Maybe What we should Do?

Is take all the bods that work for HMC&E and put the in them in plod uniforms and all the plods in C&E uniforms, that way would could kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
If the newly formed C&E got a tip off that there was 5M squids worth of crack cocaine sitting in a boat just off the N.Foreland when they turn up 3 days later the boat would not be there. Likewise the newly formed plod would have all these burgulars, rapists and yobs locked up before they could do anything?

Works for me?

<s>

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Re:A thought....

I single hand much of the time: approached at night by a large RIB filled with equally large blokes, playing a searchlight on me so that I can not identify them, making to board me....

Would I not be justified in using the 'Piracy' entry on my DSC distress menu, and firing it off?

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