Cummins Mercruiser

[RogerRat]

So first post and its not good. Really asking for some thoughts as a way to proceed...
I purchased, through a broker a Sunseeker that had ben re-engined just over two years ago

Took her on a sea trial all was fine, made 35 knots at max revs.

Third trip out one motor drops power suddenly,

Wow, what a sh!tty start to your new boat! I bought my boat, T40 in similar circumstances re-engined with D6 350s' by Volvo themselves (also low hours). Three months after purchase, a main bearing broke and messed up the rear end to allow sea water to come flying in. Emergency lift out arranged by my broker, JD Yachts in Weymouth within one hour who understood the engines to be under warranty by Volvo for at least another month...

Volvo said No thank you, not interested your 3 days out of warranty but JD Yachts stood by it and sorted it for me.

To me it shows that the engine manufacturers need good PR and simply don't care but the smaller guy who is just trying to make a living has to bite the bullet and pay out. I know you can't expect the broker to stand by it re 'sale of goods' unless they offer warranties etc. but they may be able to help in some way.

I now have had two good brokers help me after sale, namely Essex Boatyards and J D Yachts. Your CMD dealer seemed a waste of space and I would have thought no damn good as an approved maintenance centre.

Good luck with progressing and I hope you find an angle to 'nail' them!

 

[omega2]

Omega. I was looking at a boat with 2001 "Mercruiser D-Tronic" 260hp. Is this likely to be VM based?
Thanks.

Sorry been away, but you have your answer, it would appear to be good advice.

 

[Pennpromo]

CMD 320

Well the saga moves on:
Had the engine stripped and steam cleaned and degreased. Spoken to Cummins in UK and Europe with no joy. No complete engines left as they are now superceeded. No part engines left, none from VM until the end of September at the earliest at about £7K + VAT for a "long engine" I.E with heads.
Broken valve gone of for materials analysis ...
Now sent the shrapnel off to George the VM Specialist in Chesterfield who says that no job is too big. I wait with baited breath !

 

[davey]

I did not realise that those VM based engines were still around, my mate had a 120 BMW in a Hardy 24, a few years back, and these as many will know were rubbish, when this one gave up the ghost and was removed from the boat we found VM stamps all over it. He later bought a Mercruiser 180 unit, and this was also found to be VM. He sold the boat!!

Hmm I think thats a bit of a wild statement about VM engines as I've used these successfully on a daily basis in cars for well over ten years. Admittedly the engines are problematic in Range Rovers but IMHO this is because of poor installation YES POOR INSTALLATION ! IMHO problems arise because the engine is mounted north - south and when towing heavy trailers up steep hills the water pump gets to be the highest thing. (same thing can happen with boats). This problem doesn't arise on the transverse engined Rover 800s with which I've towed trailers over the tops of Welsh mountains (aren't satnavs brilliant? Duh!) Later 2.5 VM powered Range Rovers had a modified cooling system and the 2.5 VM Powered Ford Scorpio even had a header tank above the engines rocker cover. The correct turbo-rated oil is also essential. I've also got a BMW D636 rated at 180HP. This is actually an old VM HR692 using 600ccs per cylinder the same as the old Range Rover 2.4 VM. Drawback is that it doesn't have self adjusting tappets. If I ever get around to using the BMW I'll rig up a raised header tank as low-profile cooling systems are rather iffy. I'd also recommend engine users to read up on "Steam Trapping and Air Venting" as much of this topic is highly relevant to engine cooling systems. Oh by the way, if you ever buy a French car that has air-bleed valves all over the cooling system you've been swindled. Reason is that microporosity of metals and gaskets will leak gases into the cooling system. (even a few ccs per day will make air locks and cause trouble)

 

[davey]

Anode Rip Offs

I had trouble getting anodes as they are no longer made, Barrus supplied me with a Yanmar one which they use instead.

A friend wanted two new anodes for his Petter Mini-6 (one to use and one as a spare). The Petter agent quoted about £190 including VAT and delivery! A chandlers quoted £35 each but even this seemed expensive.
Google to the rescue. In the end I got a foot of half inch diameter zinc rod for about £15 including postage. This made two anodes (lathe and BSF die required) and left me with enough zinc to make another three or four. Captain Bligh who goes potty about rip-offs highly delighted.

Zinc anodes are used all over the world to protect oil rigs etc and there are several companies who will supply zinc to Joe Public. Ready made anodes were available for £7 each at the right shop but the DIY method was more cost effective. Amazing how much "neck" some firms have when it comes to overcharging.

 

[omega2]

Hmm I think thats a bit of a wild statement about VM engines as I've used these successfully on a daily basis in cars for well over ten years. Admittedly the engines are problematic in Range Rovers but IMHO this is because of poor installation YES POOR INSTALLATION ! IMHO problems arise because the engine is mounted north - south and when towing heavy trailers up steep hills the water pump gets to be the highest thing. (same thing can happen with boats). This problem doesn't arise on the transverse engined Rover 800s with which I've towed trailers over the tops of Welsh mountains (aren't satnavs brilliant? Duh!) Later 2.5 VM powered Range Rovers had a modified cooling system and the 2.5 VM Powered Ford Scorpio even had a header tank above the engines rocker cover. The correct turbo-rated oil is also essential. I've also got a BMW D636 rated at 180HP. This is actually an old VM HR692 using 600ccs per cylinder the same as the old Range Rover 2.4 VM. Drawback is that it doesn't have self adjusting tappets. If I ever get around to using the BMW I'll rig up a raised header tank as low-profile cooling systems are rather iffy. I'd also recommend engine users to read up on "Steam Trapping and Air Venting" as much of this topic is highly relevant to engine cooling systems. Oh by the way, if you ever buy a French car that has air-bleed valves all over the cooling system you've been swindled. Reason is that microporosity of metals and gaskets will leak gases into the cooling system. (even a few ccs per day will make air locks and cause trouble)

Sorry to be argumentative, but try sticking one in boat and watch it rust!! the sump rusted away in 6 months, fancy that it was made out of mild steel.

 

[Elessar]

For mercruiser parts go here (clicky)
Far cheaper than Volvo, easy to see parts diagrams and it arrives in a couple of days.
I think Mercruiser get a bad press, partly because of the lack of local availability. I suspect as more sealines get mercs in and the zuess becomes more popular, they'll become more mainstream and a better network will develop.
Volvo after all design stupid things such as a steering ram outside the boat that is just bound to fail, we all get used to the mass car market and forget what a cottage industry boating is.

 

[davey]

Sorry to be argumentative, but try sticking one in boat and watch it rust!! the sump rusted away in 6 months, fancy that it was made out of mild steel.

You can get steel sumps galvanised or painted. The Ford Ka sumps are notorious for rusting through and that's on a car! OK I do know that a lot of poor quality Russian steel went to Italy years ago. Allegedly it was a barter deal with Fiat who swapped the old Fiat 1500 tooling so the Russians could make Ladas. As to steel assaying one method is to count the particles of dross viewed in the field of a microscope. Presumably the dross particles make little corrosion cells however the main snag is that they can trigger cracking. Good quality British steel would average 400 counts, best Swedish electrically smelted steel 3. No prizes for guessing which is the better for engine valve spring manufacture. As to the motor body pressings trade "I'll sell it to the motor trade as if it will press without ripping they'll buy it" retorted a steel rep when he was told his steel wasn't fit for making English-Electric washing machines. Caveat Emptor.

 

[omega2]

You can get steel sumps galvanised or painted. The Ford Ka sumps are notorious for rusting through and that's on a car! OK I do know that a lot of poor quality Russian steel went to Italy years ago. Allegedly it was a barter deal with Fiat who swapped the old Fiat 1500 tooling so the Russians could make Ladas. As to steel assaying one method is to count the particles of dross viewed in the field of a microscope. Presumably the dross particles make little corrosion cells however the main snag is that they can trigger cracking. Good quality British steel would average 400 counts, best Swedish electrically smelted steel 3. No prizes for guessing which is the better for engine valve spring manufacture. As to the motor body pressings trade "I'll sell it to the motor trade as if it will press without ripping they'll buy it" retorted a steel rep when he was told his steel wasn't fit for making English-Electric washing machines. Caveat Emptor.

so what are you saying "buy a marine engine then protect it yourself against a hostile environment?" get real mate. They are not fit for purpose end of.

 

[DAKA]

Does anyone know what the difference is between the various outputs, 2203, 250, 300 and 320? Is it simply a question of different intercoolers, turbos, injectors and pumps, or are the heads, blocks, pistons and valves different ?
If they are the same block and heads apart from the ancillaries that opens up a few options.

In regards to the short block, there are many differences between the various Hp.
The 220hp is totally different from the 300hp.
The 300hp has different pistons to the 320hp.

 

[Pennpromo]

CMD 320

Looked at a 250 today and whilst its essentially the same all of the looks and things are different so its a no go option. Cummins have still not come back to me with any sort of solution to my problem. Not even a price or delivery date of an engine or short engine.
Motor is at the VM Specialist in Chesterfield, have now craned the boat back in with one engine to use it as a caravn next week for holidays. Not going far but fortunately we have a 15ft Whaler to play with.
Looks like the whole season will now be a right off.

 

[ChrisKaye]

Sorry to hear that Simon , hope you get a satisfactory resolution soon not missing much on the weather front at the moment

 

[wetspot]

In regards to the short block, there are many differences between the various Hp.
The 220hp is totally different from the 300hp.
The 300hp has different pistons to the 320hp.

Hi all, just done a quick searck on engine blocks for the CMD320 EI & ES and the Mercruiser 300 D-Tronic and the blocks are the same, the only real diference is the ECM, the CMD300 has the same ECM as the 300 D-Tronic, all other major parts are the same. but beware CMD have a habit of mixing up part number !!! engine block number 889-889505

as far as getting CMD to rebuild, they haven't got a clue about these engines, as they were VM/Mercruiser engines that were re-badged, CMD only have knowledge about the QSD range which is a common rail unit.
list price (in the States for this engine block is $2505)

I am curently in a dispute with CMD uk as they supplied me with the wrong ECM for the past 2 years, for my 300 D-Tronic, so I know what you are having to deal with !!!
If you want any advice on your engine, PM Me as I have a lot of recources now.

 

[wetspot]

In regards to the short block, there are many differences between the various Hp.
The 220hp is totally different from the 300hp.
The 300hp has different pistons to the 320hp.

Hi all, just done a quick searck on engine blocks for the CMD320 EI & ES and the Mercruiser 300 D-Tronic and the blocks are the same, the only real diference is the ECM, the CMD300 has the same ECM as the 300 D-Tronic, all other major parts are the same. but beware CMD have a habit of mixing up part number !!! engine block number 889-889505

as far as getting CMD to rebuild, they haven't got a clue about these engines, as they were VM/Mercruiser engines that were re-badged, CMD only have knowledge about the QSD range which is a common rail unit.
list price (in the States for this engine block is $2505)

I am curently in a dispute with CMD uk as they supplied me with the wrong ECM for the past 2 years, for my 300 D-Tronic, so I know what you are having to deal with !!!
If you want any advice on your engine, PM Me as I have a lot of recources now.

 

[wetspot]

Well the saga moves on:
Had the engine stripped and steam cleaned and degreased. Spoken to Cummins in UK and Europe with no joy. No complete engines left as they are now superceeded. No part engines left, none from VM until the end of September at the earliest at about £7K + VAT for a "long engine" I.E with heads.
Broken valve gone of for materials analysis ...
Now sent the shrapnel off to George the VM Specialist in Chesterfield who says that no job is too big. I wait with baited breath !

Had to ring CMD for a part for my engine, while I was on the phone, I got a price for a new block for your engine, £1632 and they have 2 in stock in Belgum. its a lot cheaper than buying a over priced long block!!

 

[Pennpromo]

Slow Progress

Wetspot, many thanks for that. At present I am awaiting the engine back from the VM Specialist in Chesterfield, after promising a rebuild in a week it has taken 4. Should be back tomorrow, will keep you posted !

 

[wetspot]

Pennpromo- how did you get on?? did the VM specialist manage to get it sorted??

 

[Pennpromo]

Nearly Sorted

Well; the engine is now back from The VM Specialist, who was very helpful, but also lacked haste. Its now been, oh I don't know, over two months, whole season written off.
So engine returned and put back in but its never simple, somewhere along the line "we" have mislaid the exhaust outlet elbow and wastegate connector. CMD say they have not got it, The VM Specialist says he has not got it, the engine installer has not got it. So still not in a running position yet.
Just about given up. Totally fed up. Part not available.

 

[Warpdrive]

Are you running?

How did you finally make out?
VM are a major engine manufacturer so hopefully you just had bad luck.
Looking at the VM web site "history" I found these interesting snippets.
In 2000 VM Motori, together with Detroit Diesel Corporation, became part of the DaimlerChrysler Group. In 2003 the share packet of the Company was defined as follows: 51% Penske Group and 49% DailmerChrysler Group.
The Cento plant has continued to grow and now covers an area of 85,000 mq of which 50,000 mq are roofed. Annual production capacity is for over 80,000 engines. Our mission, to which over 1000 employees remain devoted, is still the same: to design and produce quality products
In July 2007 General Motors buy the 50-percent equity of VM Motori S.p.A. The Company is now owned by GM and Penske Corporation of Roger Penske. A joint-venture has been agreed upon and the two companies of Detroit are therefore owners 50-percent each. With this joint operation VM is part of GM Group.
Whats happening now (dec 2009) as GM is selling everything it can for cash is anybodies guess!
I'm looking at a Merc D219 equiped boat but don't want to end up with an engine i can fix!
Happy new Year from the USA.

 

[Pennpromo]

VM Mercruiser

Hi Warpdrive,
Yes I am now up and running, done about 8 hours with no apparent problems. Ended up getting an independant guy, The VM Specialist, to re-build engine, as Cummins had no parts. Now trying to come to some sort of deal with them on recompense ...