Cummins/Mercruiser engine advice please

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robinborton

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Hi,
I am thinking to buy a five year old boat with a Cummins/Mercruiser engine. I would be very grateful for any recommendations or not on this engine. All responses will be much appreciated and thank you in advance

CMDE QSD 4,2 ES 320DTS/ Br3
Power 320 Hp / 235 kWRpm limit 3800 r/minDisplacement 4.2 LEngine control system SmartCraftDrive Bravo 3Weight 564 Kg
 
gingie said:
good luck
Click to expand...

What kind of an answer is that? guys come on here for help, as your a merc man id have thought you would have answered the plus and minus of these engines.

As a volvo man i would not buy a mercruiser as there engines and drives all have different problems associated with them, but then again so do volvo and other makes.

As with any purchase if your not sure about buying have a marine engineer look at the engine and drive before you buy, obtain service history from the owner to satisfy yourself its been looked after, have a sea trial and out of water inspection of the drive, same principal applies to any make of engine, remember you need an unbiased engineer thats in no way connected with the seller or his agent.

I find mercruiser diesel engines which are based on Italian VM motori Industrial and automotive engines more complicated to work on than volvopenta, in my opinion there longevity is not that of other makes. Dont wish to offend any merc owners out there as you all know im happy to work on all makes.
 
The wisdom of Solomon needed ?

It is generally accepted that a boat powered by Mercruiser,what ever your opinion of their merits,will not command the price of a similar boat powered by the more "normal" Volvo Penta.
Whatever happens during your ownership for good or bad,it will be when you sell the boat that this will affect how fast you can get rid of it and for what price you can get .
This has been a factor in the past and doubt anything will change in the near future.
If the boat is a bargain and maybe the best you have seen (not just the first) then get your survey and decide.
Another thing how big is boat? A small single Mercruiser in 21ft boat is not the same as 2 x bigguns in a 35ft Flybridge.
Buy your boat with this in mind,pay a price which reflects this and you will not go far wrong.IMHO
Ps. ....and perhaps far more importantly there is the petrol or diesel debate and where are you going to use it.?
 
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Laterstarter1 is a Cummins expert, so either see if he replies, or PM him. I'm sure you will get some useful advice from him.

In addition, I believe that the Mercruiser outdrives are more reliable than their VP equivalents. The VP drives have a reputation for easily damaging seals if you pick up fishing lines/nets with your drives, and there have been a host of sealing issues with the steering rams. I have no personal knowledge of these problems, but have seen them come up on this forum.

I have a pair of CMD (Isuzu) 1.7's in my boat, and very happy to date. Clearly these are different engines to the ones you have identified.
 
robinborton said:
Hi,
I am thinking to buy a five year old boat with a Cummins/Mercruiser engine. I would be very grateful for any recommendations or not on this engine. All responses will be much appreciated and thank you in advance

CMDE QSD 4,2 ES 320DTS/ Br3
Power 320 Hp / 235 kWRpm limit 3800 r/minDisplacement 4.2 LEngine control system SmartCraftDrive Bravo 3Weight 564 Kg
Click to expand...

Let me explain where I am coming from before I go into detail.

I was part of a team doing due dilligence on VM back in the late 90's. Chrylsler wanted to puchase diesel engines from just one source. Dodge Ram was becoming very successful using the Cummins B and Chrysler Voyager was doing pretty well, being assembled by Steyr in European format with VM engine. VM was indirectly owned by Italian Government and had the for sale sign up, Chrysler wanted secure supplier but could not afford to purchase VM, so encouraged Cummins to purchase the company.

I liked nothing about the company, the lack of detailed warranty data, lack of detail on product planning issues and most of all the people.........If they said it was raining you looked out the window, are all Italian companies like this to deal with?
Roger Penske the then still part owner of Detroit Diesel came in like a whirlwind, detemined to spoil Cummins party and just paid the asking price and cut a deal.

For my part I just said what a lucky escape. Mercedes Benz ended up purchasing Penske's share of Detroit and then scooped Chrylsler, ending up with VM as a bit of an orphan when the for sale sign went up again. GM now seem to be current holders, in the game of pass the parcel.

Mercruiser already had a long term supply agreement with VM and ISUZU when CMD was created, so Cummins just inherited the existing diesel line up. The BIG issue in the US was that the Detroit Diesel distributors were all set up to support VM with the Rinda tool, so existing Cummins Marine distributors would not touch the CMD VM engines with a barge pole and certainly had no desire to purchase the Rinda tool just to compete with the Detroit distributors.

All too many boaters in the US were getting turned away by CMD distributors, result the reputation of the black engines was poor. CMD re-launched the VM's as QSD brand when it went common rail in order to address the support issue, however it was never integrated into Cummins Insite service tool, still required new version of Rinda tool.

On a positive note QSD's were properly launched here with the full Cummins support package of parts, tooling(Rinda), warranty and training, unlike the black engines, for which was at best patchy.

I have spoken to a few CMD dealers and they are real positive about the QSD's very quiet, smoke free, and engines appear to be holding up real well. The common rail engines are far less complicated than the earlier VP 44 pump motors and Smart Craft is a decent package. Also have a Bosch service dealer friend who looks after a heap of LDV vans, another bloody orphan.........which have four jug versions of the same VM common rail motors, apparently they are also doing well despite white van man treatment.

CMD have now kind of distanced themselves from the QSD, still available and well supported, but new kid on the block is now VW. Strictly my conjecture, however good the QSD's have been, come Tier III VM fuel consumption will take unnaceptable hit, VW are in far better shape and Cummins are already major supplier to VW and know each other well, so this has to be the way to go for Tier III. US corporations can also be a little childish, CAT was VW Marine distributor in US and other parts of the World, so there would also be a lets shaft CAT whilst they are in a mess, element as well.

You will not see much in the way of VW/CMD motors yet as the current VW line is not compatable with Smart Craft or Cummins Insite tool, obviously people learned from the VM cock up and this will be all in place by the time the new VW/CMD engines arrive.

As to Bravo III Vs Volvo DPH comparisons Spannerman is your guy, for me outdrives are creation of the Devil.

Hope this helps.
 
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sarcasm

Good luck was my reply. Anyone considering a boat with a CMD must do their home work. I just didnt get back on here to add to my post.

I would one check all history regarding the boat. Get the engine details and ask a dealer if they would look on "extranet" for warranty work that has been done. Then make sure service is uptogether.

I would also consider putting in a low offer with looking to replace the package later on.

Service back up in the UK with CMD is a joke as is their parts dept. Its not the dealers around the UK but Swanwick where the problem lies. Incompetnet staff on the tools and office people with heads up their on ar**s! Parts lady is ok but held back by others.

Issues with inferior transom plates on the steering, the compostion of the alloys in past years is getting worse. I would walk away or as i said put a stupid offer in. Or find a same boat with different powerplant.

My company to would offer to look at any vessels for forumites with pleasure. I know you are not allowed to push business on here but certain others do so I cant see it being an issue.

volvopaul said:
What kind of an answer is that? guys come on here for help, as your a merc man id have thought you would have answered the plus and minus of these engines.

As a volvo man i would not buy a mercruiser as there engines and drives all have different problems associated with them, but then again so do volvo and other makes.

As with any purchase if your not sure about buying have a marine engineer look at the engine and drive before you buy, obtain service history from the owner to satisfy yourself its been looked after, have a sea trial and out of water inspection of the drive, same principal applies to any make of engine, remember you need an unbiased engineer thats in no way connected with the seller or his agent.

I find mercruiser diesel engines which are based on Italian VM motori Industrial and automotive engines more complicated to work on than volvopenta, in my opinion there longevity is not that of other makes. Dont wish to offend any merc owners out there as you all know im happy to work on all makes.
Click to expand...
 
I am somewhat surprised at the negative comments regarding CMD , my experience has been outstanding.

I am currently in my 7th season with twin CMD 4.2L D300

They have been a pleasure to own , smoke free on start up and no black soot all over the stern/tender.

That said my engines dont sit in the marina year round and there have been issues but please bear in mind this is over 7 seasons and I believe they have been very reliable .

year 2
petty oil leak seal (2x drip of oil every 40 nm), cummins sorted it with in one week following a phone call.

year 2
Rev counter failed, cummins sent me a new one to self fit following a phone call, took less than 10 days to arrive .

year 6
a bit fell off after 5 years and 9 months, * took a few phone calls and a few emails but they were reasonably quick to organise repairs.

Year 7
Bosch starter relay failed, now out of warranty so I had to cough up, all of £6 !
(Part delivered over night and available from almost any motorist shop or Ebay)

* Note CMD warranty is 72 months (six years), you could buy your 5 year old boat and benefit from a years remaining warranty, its a no brainer !

As to complaints about CMD customer service :confused:, I have been amazed at the outstanding service provided.
But then I dont rant and rave like a headless chicken, I find out what the problem is, explain the issue and they sort it. 10 out of 10 :)
 
gingie said:
Good luck was my reply. Anyone considering a boat with a CMD must do their home work. I just didnt get back on here to add to my post.

I would one check all history regarding the boat. Get the engine details and ask a dealer if they would look on "extranet" for warranty work that has been done. Then make sure service is uptogether.

I would also consider putting in a low offer with looking to replace the package later on.

Service back up in the UK with CMD is a joke as is their parts dept. Its not the dealers around the UK but Swanwick where the problem lies. Incompetnet staff on the tools and office people with heads up their on ar**s! Parts lady is ok but held back by others.

Issues with inferior transom plates on the steering, the compostion of the alloys in past years is getting worse. I would walk away or as i said put a stupid offer in. Or find a same boat with different powerplant.

My company to would offer to look at any vessels for forumites with pleasure. I know you are not allowed to push business on here but certain others do so I cant see it being an issue.
Click to expand...

My own experience with CMD service, and parts is very different. To date I have been very happy. I had a problem gaining a BSC with Rafiki when I bought her, and CMD sorted this for me (nylon water sensors on the fuel filters needed a metal cover) free of charge, and came out to Tewks to fit the parts. They could not have been more helpful. When I have called CMD parts for prices and availability, if they have not had the answer at their fingertip, they have always called back.

Cummins have an excellent pedigree for diesel engines, and CMD are now moving into VW based engines at the smaller end. The OP's VM based engines do not have the best of reputations, but I think it is wrong to label all CMD offerings as rubbish as a result. There are many on here who have had Volvo problems, but not all Volvos are rubbish.
 
Found it a bit strange that cmd is changing from Common Rail engines to VW that most engines have a VP pump. Only V6 220hp and bigger have a CR system. All seems to cope with Epa tier 2.

Have only seen Volvo Penta offering EPA Tier 3
 
cmd

I have not said the engines are rubbish......in fact i like them. Its the way they are handled over here. Barrus didnt handle diesel side very well but you could push for results, parts and back up.

CMD in Swanwick seem to be laid back or its toooo much hard work.

They also take the p155 with the parts prices as well. As for going with VW in the days when they came along there was no ideas about parts distribution and handling of any issues what so ever. Again VW has been passed around by a few companies where will it end.

Volvo diesel product on sterndrives are a stable product,support and service. Yes they have issues what manufacturer doesnt. I have been anti green for 18 years but these days I love them.
 
DAKA said:
I am somewhat surprised at the negative comments regarding CMD , my experience has been outstanding.

I am currently in my 7th season with twin CMD 4.2L D300

They have been a pleasure to own , smoke free on start up and no black soot all over the stern/tender.

That said my engines dont sit in the marina year round and there have been issues but please bear in mind this is over 7 seasons and I believe they have been very reliable .

year 2
petty oil leak seal (2x drip of oil every 40 nm), cummins sorted it with in one week following a phone call.

year 2
Rev counter failed, cummins sent me a new one to self fit following a phone call, took less than 10 days to arrive .

year 6
a bit fell off after 5 years and 9 months, * took a few phone calls and a few emails but they were reasonably quick to organise repairs.

Year 7
Bosch starter relay failed, now out of warranty so I had to cough up, all of £6 !
(Part delivered over night and available from almost any motorist shop or Ebay)

* Note CMD warranty is 72 months (six years), you could buy your 5 year old boat and benefit from a years remaining warranty, its a no brainer !

As to complaints about CMD customer service :confused:, I have been amazed at the outstanding service provided.
But then I dont rant and rave like a headless chicken, I find out what the problem is, explain the issue and they sort it. 10 out of 10 :)
Click to expand...

I bought a Doral fitted with Cummins engines from EBY & I'm sure the warranty was only two years.
 
gingie said:
I have not said the engines are rubbish......in fact i like them. Its the way they are handled over here. Barrus didnt handle diesel side very well but you could push for results, parts and back up.

CMD in Swanwick seem to be laid back or its toooo much hard work.

They also take the p155 with the parts prices as well. As for going with VW in the days when they came along there was no ideas about parts distribution and handling of any issues what so ever. Again VW has been passed around by a few companies where will it end.

Volvo diesel product on sterndrives are a stable product,support and service. Yes they have issues what manufacturer doesnt. I have been anti green for 18 years but these days I love them.
Click to expand...

Gingie, I have noted your comments and tend to concur, think the manager at Swanick is from the planet Zog, RN actually. Having dealt with Cummins distributors in many parts of the World I have to say that Cummins UK or whatever the the distributor is called now, appear to have lost the plot.

I once remember speaking to people running an aid convoy to Romaina, turbo went down on truck, they contacted local Cummins depot who could get replacement overnight however when it was explained that this would involve convoy missing the ferry the workshop supervisor rebult turbocharger with Holset kit took a 'wrong' waste gate off a returned unit modified the waste gate setting to make it correct model for engine in the truck. Convoy made the ferry due to level of technical competence and commitment within the depot. Now appear to be just bunch of nodding donkeys. Is Peter still in running parts at Swanick, and are we talking outdrives or engines when talking pricing??

QSB, QSC, QSL and QSM11 are all brilliant rock solid motors, and speaking to dealers only complaint is that engines give them next to no work with exeption of servicing, and very little of that, as owners can service themselves without affecting warranty.
 
ulyden said:
Found it a bit strange that cmd is changing from Common Rail engines to VW that most engines have a VP pump. Only V6 220hp and bigger have a CR system. All seems to cope with Epa tier 2.

Have only seen Volvo Penta offering EPA Tier 3
Click to expand...

Uliden I have total respect your technical competence, however you need to get up to date..

VW could do Tier II with VP44, without using PD, the V6/V8 are Tier II, but hardware is Tier III compliant so just calibration change. New Tier III motors in other ratings will be CR as VW are dropping PD system as fast as they can. CAT are tearing up HUEI with indecent haste, already dropped from latest C9, new version is CR, the rest following at a gallop!

Have not seen any sign of D6 at Tier III, however we have to conclude that all engines are developed and ready for launch, as everybody else has engines ready lined up for next years shows in the US. As I pointed out in earlier post latest D6 400 is heavily revised engine with new head giving different injector location and looks like it will form basis of new Tier III motors, however launched as a Tier II motor blowing away Volvo envioronmental BS. The only assumption that can be drawn is that the D6 400 is that the fuel consumption at TIII stinks.
 
rubberduck said:
I bought a Doral fitted with Cummins engines from EBY & I'm sure the warranty was only two years.
Click to expand...

Mercruiser were 6 years (2 years wide cover, 6 years major parts)
CMD inherited the same warranty wording although some of the white 4.2 L series maybe only got 2 years as some boat builders apparently negotiated deals cutting down to two years (Im not an expert so could be wrong).

My engines were badged CMD but sold by Cummins and had 6 years warranty.

full details here
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257456


As for parts mentioned by other posters , I have been amazed at availability.

Mercruiser agents stock and can order next day.
CMD stock and can order next day.
Cummins dealers can get next day.
VM dealers have parts waiting on the shelf.
Nanni now market this same engine and I expect they are another source but not tried yet.

And a comment regarding specialist diagnostic tools for any make of engine, just what are they for :confused:

Do you want an 18 year old blond fresh out of college to lean over your engines in daisy dukes and a Volvo/CMD sweat shirt to plug a tool in ?

To tell you what exactly ....................

Black soot on stern........change air filter
black soot on stern and fading power..........change pre filter
no improvement................change engine filter

Running hot..............check RW trap
Trap clear...........check/change impellor

wont start.............check for fuel, crack an injector crank and re tighten,
still wont start ..........use a multimeter to trace where the current stops, repair broken wire/neutral safety switch/relay as required.

Now please lets agree a good muckanic (like col and volvo paul ) should be correctly referred to as engineers, they have been using their engineering skills for decades without bimbo tools :rolleyes:

And for those who use the bimbo tools, please let us know how often a punter forks out for a new injector, fuel pump, ECU, etc and it turns out to be a faulty sensor, does the bimbo tool display reads
"ooops I did it again, charged a grand and a half,
broke a punters heart, ands it just a duff sensor,
now Ive got all those used parts , but Im not that innocent,
ooops I did it again, thank goodness for ebay ."
 
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Daka

Been a mercruiser agent for manymany years and not aware of the warranty.

Yes on yanmar 2 year warranty and 5 years on major parts but not on Mercruiser unless the factory that installed it had an installation approved contract with mercruiser. What i mean by this is that engine installers at boat builders go on a course to install and those boats engines gain extra warranty coverage. Builders that dont send their guys on the approval course get a standard 2 year warranty.

As for diagnostic comms. Many an engine will store fault codes and some even hold those codes even if the faulty sensor was replaced and will run at 89%power. Meaning sometimes a `bimbo` tool is required. Without fail we always when servicing an efi, D-series or d-tronic install "Rinda" or "Vodia" just to make sure all is running as it should and clear any fault codes that may be present.

Unless you have the manual for a D4/6 the testing on sensors and wiring is 200 pages of tests depending on what your fault/faults maybe. A bimbo tool speeds this up very quickly aiming us techies to get it put right quicker.

But some dealerships have untrained guys running round with these boxes of tricks that dont know how to use or diagnose hence why they charge loads for changing parts that were not needed.

Latestarter. You share my sentiments on CMD swanwick......dont want to name names but a complete shower of the brown stuff they are! Drives and engine parts are stooopid prices!

Daka can you send me the warranty info just like to read it myself out of interest please
 
gingie said:
Been a mercruiser agent for manymany years and not aware of the warranty.



Daka can you send me the warranty info just like to read it myself out of interest please
Click to expand...

http://www.cmdmarine.com/documents/4081863_1203.pdf

I can send you by post an old Mercruiser warranty sheet dating back to barus days, please pm me an address.
have one dated 2002 in my hand now and somewhere I have one dated 1998 but not immediately to hand.

if you need a part that swanick havent got VM specialist will have it and ?Northampton? will buy it and supply through the cummins truck network.
 
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