cummins diesel

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russ

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Took a look at a 24' cruiser boat Saturday which had the 2.8 cummins diesel engine. I looked at the Kad32's which i understand to be a reliable engine but what are the cummins like for reliability,servicing costs and spares?
Any advise would be appreciated before I consider this boat more seriously.
 
Although I had owned various boats with Volvo or Ford Mermaid Engines when I was buying an HGV for my business I was offered one with a Cummins diesel engine and my research revealed that they are one of the most respected engines which you can buy.They are reliable and parts are not dear. Certainly when I was buying my Leyland Roadrunner with a Cummins engine it was worth more than another one with another make of engine. I also ran an Iveco HGV whose engines are also reputed to be outstanding so when I was offered my present boat which has an Iveco 2.5 Diesel I did not hesitate.
It appears that in the UK boat builders either fitted Perkins, Volvo or marinised Ford Truck Engines (Mermaid) and more lately Nanni. Its a shame as there are a lot of engines out there which are not imported into the UK for boats, forinstance Zetor.
I was buying a tractor and was offered a Zetor. Whereas I had previously sworn by Massey Ferguson with Perkins fitted I was told that out that Zetor Engines were fitted in Russian Tanks and have to work in the Arctic Circle and they were the most reliable engines in the world as the engine design was copied from a Cummins which was copied from a Perkins. I wont elaborate any further, but to me the boat you are looking at with this Cummins engine would be a better choice than one with another make of engine.
 
russ said:
Took a look at a 24' cruiser boat Saturday which had the 2.8 cummins diesel engine. I looked at the Kad32's which i understand to be a reliable engine but what are the cummins like for reliability,servicing costs and spares?
Any advise would be appreciated before I consider this boat more seriously.
Click to expand...

Sadly the 2.8 CMD QSD engine is not a true Cummins engine, it is a VM motor marketed under the CMD banner. I was a member of a team who did due dilligence on VM when the Italian government were selling up. After a week my vote was to walk away.

In the event Detroit Diesel picked VM up, since then company has been a pass the parcel. Cummins was rowed into the VM engines due to long term supply agreement with Mercruiser, this was not a deal made in heaven. Cummins recently divested themselves of VM (QSD) engines by forming a strategic alliance with VW. http://www.cmdmarine.com/ourcompany/cmdvwalliance.html

QSD population is small with no future under CMD banner, personally I would choose the Volvo option.

As to Cummins B engine being a copy of a Perkins, Phillip E Jones the designer of the engine would tear our Jim limb from limb if he came within arms length. Yes Phillip Jones did work for Perkins, recognised as one of the most talented as well as one of the most abrasive design engineers of the 20th Century who went to the US in the late 70's after years of frustration at Perkins. The Jones legacy is now the worlds largest selling one liter per jug motor.

There is nothing about the VM which fits the Jones design philosophy other than being metric.
 
As latestarter says, this particular Cummins is a VM based engine. As with any engine, reliability is a function of design integrity, validation and service. The VM engines have worked quite well in auto and industial uses, when properly integrated and validated into the vehicle.

Spares are quite easy through VM outlets, and servicing is not difficult, particularly the cylinder heads, as these are modular.

If the engine has been properly serviced, then this engine is not the horror story that some on here would make out. There have also been many disappointed Volvo owners.
 
AS latestarter says Cummins are going to stop selling the VM range but say full support remains in place for the VM range with parts not being an issue, VM are still being produced and now sold by Nanni.

Not sure how old the boat you are looking at is but check the warranties........

Volvo Penta 24 month at best.
Cummins 72 months on major parts.

If you are looking at a boat 24-60 months old its a no brainer !

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257456
See above for full details.
 
DAKA said:
AS latestarter says Cummins are going to stop selling the VM range but say full support remains in place for the VM range with parts not being an issue, VM are still being produced and now sold by Nanni.

Not sure how old the boat you are looking at is but check the warranties........

Volvo Penta 24 month at best.
Cummins 72 months on major parts.

If you are looking at a boat 24-60 months old its a no brainer !

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257456
See above for full details.
Click to expand...

I must profess to more than a little VM blindness which is unfair. In reality VM have had a torrid time, LDV vans went belly up on them just when the 2.8 VM engine was actually doing a great job in the Maxus van.
 
A little off topic but.

I was unfortunate enough to agree to deliver a brand new fishing boat from Brisbane to Cairns a few years ago now.

I almost got back on the dock when I looked in the engine room to see a massive 2 stroke cummings engine.

I sent one of 3 crew ashore to get a bag of ear plugs and 4 sets of ear muffs.

The plan was to run 24 hours a day non stop, but after 18 hours we had to stop, no one could sleep a wink off watch, even with plugs and muffs.

No doubt an aluminium construction with very little on board helped the hull ring like bell.

But she never missed a beat and only had a half litre added that I suspect she did not need.

It's only the 2 stroke version that makes so much noise though.

Good advice above and good luck.:)
 
omega2 said:
for proper engine look at the Diamond, for the not so good look at the Mercruiser job

http://www.cmdmarine.com/engines/rec/inboards/MERC/index.html
Click to expand...

Nah,

This is a proper motor QSK19, original K19 was started with a clean sheet of paper around 1979 by Phillip Jones, and after seven months he had a prototype up and running. Other than changes to fuel system from from PT to common rail general layout has not been bettered.
 
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Arctic Circle and they were the most reliable engines in the world as the engine design was copied from a Cummins which was copied from a Perkins.

hmm.. sounds like perkins are the best then. lol jim@sea
 
Latestarter1 said:
Nah,

This is a proper motor QSK19, original K19 was started with a clean sheet of paper around 1979 by Phillip Jones, and after seven months he had a prototype up and running. Other than changes to fuel system from from PT to common rail general layout has not been bettered.
Click to expand...

I dont know much about boats it has to be said but ive been a training auto technician for the last 2 years and it might be completley diffrent on marine, but certainly when it comes to car engines if you can stay away from COMMON RAIL INJECTION SYSTEMS THEN DO IT!!
I dont doubt for a second that you will be saving yourself ££££ in the long run.

recently we had to replace both the high pressure fuel pump and electronic injectors on a v10 TDI VW Toureg the injectors were £500 each x10 and the fuel pump was £2300 for some reason these havent had time to have been developed properly and they just seem to break up under the extreme pressures!

as i say i know little about marine but it might be worth taking this into account when looking.

good luck with the search.
 
moonraker 36 said:
Arctic Circle and they were the most reliable engines in the world as the engine design was copied from a Cummins which was copied from a Perkins.

hmm.. sounds like perkins are the best then. lol jim@sea
Click to expand...

I have read a number of published papers by Phillip Jones regarding his design philosophy which was born out of his experience at Perkins. Jones was openly critical that 6.354 had to be manufactured off much of the old Perkins P6 tooling as this had all been paid for by the Government and that Perkins was unwilling to invest in all new tooling, this resulted in compromised crank dimensions and a critically weak feature that the pockets to accomodate the head studs are insufficiently deep in the block.

Instead of investing in a new family of in line engines Perkins invested in the V8 510/540 to reach higher powers which proved a disaster.

About six years ago Perkins Sabre were working on development of the increased displacement Phaser which itself is just a warmed over 6.354. Target power for project was 450Hp, after two years work it all ended in tears. Perkins needed to increase rotational speed to decrease cylinder pressures as they could not keep head gaskets on the engine as they could not get sufficeint clamp load due to the pockets for the head bolts not being deep enough in the block. One of the Perkins engineers compared the Perkins crank as akin to a 'bloody bent paper clip' when they looked at the critical crank dimensions of the Cummins B they were tearing down. Decent engineers at Perkins recognised the loss of Jones as a huge blow.
 
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Paul.

I love all the old info you give us.

I have lost count how many 6354 head gaskets ive replaced over the years, I also remember when Massey Ferguson turbocharged the MF 590, 4.236 engine it too didnt last long before premature head gasket failure, MF and Perkins were sending us short motors every week in an attempt to keep the Farmers happy, I remember cold torque method on head bolts sometimes never torqued up as it pulled the block to bits instead.

Ever seen the smoke on start up from a range 4 220hp 6354, as bad as an old sabre.
 
russ said:
So, 2007 2.8cc M Cummins any good or not? Should I carry on my boat hunt?
Click to expand...

Its a good engine and should benefit from the remaining warranty which in 2007 I believe was 72 months on major parts.

The apparent confusion on this thread is two fold

a) VM were a little short on cash a few years back and financially their future was uncertain until the American giant Detroit bought them (since then GAZ have bought them who are massive in Russia with a huge market, now very stable.)

You shouldnt be too concerned with that as the quality of their engines wasnt affected by this.

b) Cummins brought this high output engine out while others including Volvo Penta were still selling the old reliable plodders, when you compare the long term serviceability of this engine against some of the 1950-1960 designed lumps then it isnt as good by a long way, however you wouldnt fit an old plodder to a small boat, the alternative was petrol.
Volvo Penta have now brought out their high output range (D3,D4 and D6) which unfortunately have also suffered lower reliability compared with the older lumps.

Discounting the old reliable 5-9 litre lumps which isnt an option for you, you have three choices left........

Old petrol lump
light weight high output diesel Cummins
light weight high output diesel Volvo penta


I would go with the Cummins concious of the 6 year warranty on major parts
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257456
(note link above, you should check for yourself that your engine benifits).
 
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Quote - recently we had to replace both the high pressure fuel pump and electronic injectors on a v10 TDI VW Toureg the injectors were £500 each x10 and the fuel pump was £2300 for some reason these havent had time to have been developed properly and they just seem to break up under the extreme pressures!

So the future looks bright seeing as Cummins/Mercruiser have now dropped the VM motor and will use VW/Audi motors from their cars as their entry level engines, shades of Volvo's 5 cyl car engine being marinised and called a D3 which is now on its 2nd version and I have a folder full of tech bulletins and mods for this new version too!
 
spannerman said:
Quote - recently we had to replace both the high pressure fuel pump and electronic injectors on a v10 TDI VW Toureg the injectors were £500 each x10 and the fuel pump was £2300 for some reason these havent had time to have been developed properly and they just seem to break up under the extreme pressures!

So the future looks bright seeing as Cummins/Mercruiser have now dropped the VM motor and will use VW/Audi motors from their cars as their entry level engines, shades of Volvo's 5 cyl car engine being marinised and called a D3 which is now on its 2nd version and I have a folder full of tech bulletins and mods for this new version too!
Click to expand...

Should keep you in business Spannerman for many years!
 
spannerman said:
Quote - recently we had to replace both the high pressure fuel pump and electronic injectors on a v10 TDI VW Toureg the injectors were £500 each x10 and the fuel pump was £2300 for some reason these havent had time to have been developed properly and they just seem to break up under the extreme pressures!

So the future looks bright seeing as Cummins/Mercruiser have now dropped the VM motor and will use VW/Audi motors from their cars as their entry level engines, shades of Volvo's 5 cyl car engine being marinised and called a D3 which is now on its 2nd version and I have a folder full of tech bulletins and mods for this new version too!
Click to expand...

Do not worry, there are plenty of the guys about like the one above, even more so in the marine market. I call them 'boilermen' (not spannermen) just like plumbers, diagnostics consist of just swapping components starting with the most expensive first. Replacing an entire fuel system.......plain nuts!

The VM based (QSD) common rail engines are extremely sweet, quiet and smoke free. VW current use of clunky old unit injectors will be phased out in favor of common rail by the time we get to Tier III emissions and the marinisation package looks a class act.

However I have a real big hang up regarding use of LDA (Light Duty Automoive) of ANY flavor VM, Volvo or VW in marine applications. Cos the big volume is automotive we get lumbered with turbomachinery configured to meet automotive transient response emissions for a test cycle focussed on steady state, pointless. Generally leads to fitting automotive swing vane VG turbochargers which in my book have no place in a marine application.
 
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