Crutch straps

[estarzinger]

deckvest owner . . . £166 . . . do racers hate them.

Its about risk, and some people make poor risk assessments as far as that relates to yourself then that's your lookout.

These debates come up again and again and for an industry like gliding or horseriding or motorsport poster advocating the non-wearing of safety gear would be frankly considered insane.

We are talking about two different generations of spinlock products. I am referring to what I think was called the deck pro line and I believe your deckvest is an improvement/evolution. Yes, sorry I was referring to the USA price in $'s, which was about $500 and about twice the next most expensive LJ/harness.

If you want to read an interesting article on this and related topics - here's one by our friend Stan Honey (winning Volvo Navigator). He mentions the pro crews making their own spectra harnesses because they did not like how bulky and cumbersome the Spinlocks were. www.bethandevans.com/pdf/safety_volvo_race[1].pdf

I agree its about risk, and the facts (which I have posted) say to me the risk is extremely low (very roughly 10 total drownings from sailboats/year in the total USA) and that life jackets don't seem to help as much as one would hope. If you think that's a bad assessment I would be curious to heard what facts you have that are different?

The risk facts are different in other sports - if you screw up in a glider the death rate is pretty high, horse riding has quite a high incident of severe injury, and the same with motor sports. Sailing in no way has a similar risk profile. It in fact has an injury rate per participant hour very close to golf (two studies, both using UK data, are on our website showing this).

 

[bilbobaggins]

DK did make the point above relating to how a crotch strap may be adjusted.
If seated, as was my crew when he took a green one, even if he had a crotch strap on it may still have been too loose whilst seated and so we think the LJ would have ridden up around his neck in seconds anyway.

It seems to me that one solution here, perhaps, was for the seated crew member with the ridden-up LSJ simply to stand up, adjust his dress, shake the water out of his ears, and sit down again. What S_T described is similar to why helicopter crews generally don't choose to wear auto-inflatable LSJs. And multihull racers. There are circumstances I find myself in where I certainly want to exercise the choice, and not a salt tablet.

I've come round to the view that I wore the d*** things when I was flying for a living, for HM Queen kindly bought and provided them for me, so I should put mine on nowadays when I've paid for it myself. It's rather a waste of good beer tokens for it to be languishing in the warm and dry of a locker below ( ! and still in the original packaging, DaveS ! ) while I'm getting cold and wet on watch up above.

I've got over the damage that wearing an LSJ might do to my 'street cred'. That's irrecoverable. But I'm not....

 

[emandvee44]

Crutch Straps

With 101 replies to date I felt I must wade in with my six penny worth, particularly as it is a subject which is dear to my heart.
We have 8 lifejackets on board "Time Off", with thigh straps which are totally useless, for the reasons described by refueler, (and thanks for the remedy, neighbour).
Crutch straps are in my experience no problem to use and they work. In my previous job we had about 50 lifejackets on site, all with crutch straps and we used to test them annually by having our personnel jump in the harbour (that is how I know they inflate in 4-6 secs. or something like that). We never found the crutch straps a problem.
As a pilot, embarking and disembarking ships in a variety of sea conditions, often very bad, I was very concerned that my lifejacket would, if required, 'do the business'.
We used North Sea spec. lifejackets, 275 N, double carcass, twin cylinders etc., and while these are a bit heavier than the crewsaver/XM/seago type, they are probably much better than the equivalent yachtie type of the same rating.
I have just done a google search and there are lifejackets with all the approvals, MCA SOLAS ETC., which are used extensively in the North Sea, made by manufacturers you have never heard of - price around £190 - and they have crutch straps!

Michael.

 

[Gavinvfr]

A few years ago i did an offshore survival course and we had to jump off a
10 mtr diving board into a pool as part of the training.
We was told to make sure the crutch strap was on and had to cross our arms in front of our chests so our right hand could hold down the life jacket as we entered the water at speed.
The reason being in the past, certain designs of life jackets had been forced upwards and had actually broken the persons neck. We was told the Piper Alpha rig disaster was one instance of this happening.
Hitting the water from over 30 ft i can see how it could happen.

Gavin

 

[Refueler]

A few years ago i did an offshore survival course and we had to jump off a
10 mtr diving board into a pool as part of the training.
We was told to make sure the crutch strap was on and had to cross our arms in front of our chests so our right hand could hold down the life jacket as we entered the water at speed.
The reason being in the past, certain designs of life jackets had been forced upwards and had actually broken the persons neck. We was told the Piper Alpha rig disaster was one instance of this happening.
Hitting the water from over 30 ft i can see how it could happen.

Gavin

The folded arms across chest with hands gripping the neck band is based on Kapok Ships LJ's where they have no lower strap to hold it down. Consider that jumping of a ships deck would usually be a lot higher than of a yacht.

Jumping from a good height ... with conventional jacket - imagine the force exerted by that jacket as you try to get it to descend underwater ! I've jumped into Plymouth Sound from Colledge Yacht Tectona with a kapok LJ on and believe me it took real effort to hold that neck band as you went in ... not only that but the 'head-rest' part smacked the back of your head as it came up ! Luckily with yachty LJ's you don't have that hinged bit !!

 

[DRANNIE]

So Deckvest for yourself, inferior design XM for your guests?

No, I bought the deckvest for this years RORC campaign ending in the fastnet after doing the ISAF safety course. My boat at the XMs and any guests have been out of the water this year My xm's have crutch straps and from next season will have sprayhoods. Would I be happy to wear one inshore, yes.

 

[bilbobaggins]

This is from ace race navigator Stan Honey on the Cruising Club of America website.

I'm interested in these Spectra harnesses. If anyone has details, I'd be obliged....

"Harnesses/PFD’s.

Several of the crew on 'ABN AMRO ONE', on other VOR boats, and on 'Pyewacket' have built their own lightweight Spectra harnesses that have no metal parts. The guys who have these harnesses find that they are so comfortable that they wear them more often than the heavier integrated harnesses/PFD’s. Integrated harnesses, coupled with the second shackle on the person end of the tether, have made the gear so heavy and cumbersome that many crew delay wearing them until they feel it is necessary for safety.

The guys who wear the light Spectra harnesses sometimes wear “fanny-pack” style PFD’s. Some folks criticize this approach stating that the fanny pack PFD’s will not save an unconscious person in the water. All VOR crew have gone through the VOR in-the-water training for PFD’s/survival-suits/liferafts. After that training many concluded that no PFD will keep them alive in the water if they are unconscious unless the sea is absolutely calm. As many have experienced, when you’re in the water in any reasonable wind and sea state, it is hard to keep water out of your nose and mouth.

The spray hoods on PFD’s are a huge help, but you need to be conscious to deploy them. So some crew figure that they are better off with the light Spectra harness and a fanny pack PFD because they will wear it more often than they would an integrated harness/PFD. This approach is permitted by the ISAF Special Regs, but the trend of most boats to use the bulkier integrated PFD/harnesses might be counter-productive since the crew is likely to delay wearing this integrated harness."

 

[estarzinger]

Stan's a friend and I asked him about these. They were just spliced up using spare spectra single braid. The riggers on board could turn out a custom size harness in about a half hour. There were a few different designs, but generally "Y" style suspenders spliced into a waist 'belt' (all in 10 or 12mm spectra single braid). The single leg tether was 'luggage hitched' to the waist belt. Whole thing only weighed a few ounces and you did not even know you had it on.

 

[bedouin]

What about the issue of being able to release yourself from the harness in an emergency?

I am not sure how you would secure the safety line to the harness in a way that is both secure and gives you quick release without using some form of metal hook - or perhaps just rely on a knife?

 

[estarzinger]

yes, I expect their answer was a knife. But for a little extra weight you could have a trigger shackle (tylasta/sparcraft) on the inboard end of the tether.

Remember these are Volvo sailors. They have the experience to make their own risk assessments and many of them decided it was much better to have a really light simple harness they could wear all the time without noticing than something bigger and less comfortable with all sorts of shackles and bells and whistles.

 

[bilbobaggins]

What about the issue of being able to release yourself from the harness in an emergency?

I am not sure how you would secure the safety line to the harness in a way that is both secure and gives you quick release without using some form of metal hook - or perhaps just rely on a knife?

I share that view, and am not as 'focussed' on saving weight as the guys in the Volvo - no cut-in-half toothbrushes for me! I have a MILSPEC snaplink on each end, and a climber's tape-loop, rated at many times my bodyweight-in-motion, in between. See photo above.....

Safety gear ( I prefer 'survival'; there's nothing that makes charging about on a slippery foredeck, in a gale, safe! ) must be well tough enough for the job, and then some. There's absolutely no point buying it, carrying it, using it, if there's any question about it being wholly and completely up to it.

Period.

 

[David_Jersey]

FWIW, our lifejackets all have crutch straps, and we use them.

I don't really care what others choose to do, as long as they are comfortable with their decisions.

I wear my crotch strap when in the bath. no lifejacket though.

 

[Boeingdr]

Personally I subscribe to the idea that the only sure survival technique is to stay on the boat.
I would rather stay attached via a harness than bother with a lifejacket which can reduce mobility.
I have fallen off a boat..on a mooring whilst trying to unfree a halyard after a race..the boom knocked me off... the lifejacket inflated i didnt have a crotch strap and it worked perfectly.
The only other times I have used a lifejacket in anger have been on aircrew sea survival courses in the RAF many years ago. No crotch straps on those lifejackets and they did the job as advertised.
So maybe the design of yachting lifejackets should be improved in line with those used in aviation.

 

[estarzinger]

I have a MILSPEC snaplink on each end,

Safety gear . . . There's absolutely no point buying it, carrying it, using it, if there's any question about it being wholly and completely up to it.

Period.

I use similar hooks on my tether (I use the wichard ones). But it's interesting that neither your nor my preference meet the ISAF tether requirements/recommendations

"5.02.3 A safety line purchased in January 2001 or later shall have a coloured flag embedded in the stitching, to indicate an overload."

Like you I prefer to have an 'unbreakable' tether, than a weaker one with an overload flag.

"5.02.5 d) snaphooks should be of a type which . . . can be easily released under load"

The idea is to be able to disconnect if you are being dragged, or trapped under the boat with the tether taut, or such situations. Your hook and mine need some small amount of slack to unhook. As I mentioned above there are 'trigger shackles' (sparcraft/tylaska and wichard) that allow release even under bar-tight load and I would consider one of these the next time I rebuild by tether.

One thing to think about, and which I know from discussion was on the volvo crew's mind, was the ability to comfortably sleep or at lest rest off-watch with the tether on. When the **** hits the fan at 2am and 'all on deck' is called, its very useful (and safer for the boat) if the crew is able to go directly on deck and not have to struggle with a LF/harness and crotch straps. This is really why they did not like metal bits on their spectra harnesses, not the weight savings.

 

[bilbobaggins]

I use similar hooks on my tether....
Like you I prefer to have an 'unbreakable' tether....
The idea is to be able to disconnect if you are being dragged, or trapped....
One thing to think about.... rest off-watch with the tether on.....

'RogerSoFarOver' to all that.

I note that Spinlock offer a special Safety Line Cutter 'blade tool' to go with their personal lifelines and deckvests. I rather imagine that, following a big knockdown, that's NOT going to be close to hand when I need it. My second snaplink is.....

While I understand the 'cowhitch-in-Spectra' thinking, I tend to sail shorthanded and like the freedom to leave the lifeline clipped on to a hardpoint ( in the cockpit, close to the hatch ) and unclip my end once I'm inside. I can then clip again on before clambering up the companionway steps - as strongly recommended not so long ago by RORC.

If it should get really bad, I usually carry a second similar lifeline in my bag, so I can 'double-up' when on the helm to avoid being thrown across the cockpit, and losing control of the boat. ( Is that 'belt and braces'? ) I also carry, on some trips, a pair of Jumars ( climbers' rope clamps ) to facilitate going up the mast. I've learned that it's far less physically demanding to teach a young buck to 'Jumar up' than to winch him up in a bosun's chair.....

I still encounter, on some peeps' boats, old lifelines-on-harnesses with a 3.4" rope and an old-pattern keyhole-shaped snaplink, where the opening bar has a sharp machined 'hook' shape which mates with machined cut-outs on the opposite side. That Austrian Stubai design was 'outlawed' for climbing purposes in the 1960s as not fit for purpose, although it continues to be offered in some yacht chandlers. The sharp machined edges slice away at the rope lifeline when being opened and closed, materially weakening what was already an inadequate product. I've been known to 'deep six' such a deathtrap device when offered one on an otherwise well-spec'd modern cruiser-racer.

But then, I'm not thoroughly house-trained.....

 

[bbg]

I note that Spinlock offer a special Safety Line Cutter 'blade tool' to go with their personal lifelines and deckvests. I rather imagine that, following a big knockdown, that's NOT going to be close to hand when I need it.

Au contraire. The deckvest has a special pocket just for the cutter, with a lanyard to attach it. However, the pocket is on the inside face of the horizontal belt, and I have my doubts as to how easy it would be to reach quickly. (I have the deckvest but not the cutter).
Based on this thread I am re-thinking my harness line. I find the SS hooks heavy, and wonder if I could switch to a lightweight aluminium climbing carabiner.

 

[bilbobaggins]

I find the SS hooks heavy, and wonder if I could switch to a lightweight aluminium climbing carabiner.

Aw.....Bless!

But of course you can! Just don't come bleating here when you find your expensive climbing krabs are corroding. And, be aware that a large lump of the alu krab's rated strength comes from the surface treatment. Once that starts to corrode and pit - even microscopically - the thing is not fit for purpose.

So save weight elsewhere,where it doesn't matter so much. Er, couldn't you cycle to the marina in the mornings, or ease up on the chocolate fondue....?

 

[Trident 24]

That Austrian Stubai design was 'outlawed' for climbing purposes in the 1960s as not fit for purpose, although it continues to be offered in some yacht chandlers. The sharp machined edges slice away at the rope lifeline when being opened and closed,

I think the problem was also that the sharp corners were significant stress raisers..

Many years ago I had the misfortune to own some Simond Chamonix alloy crabs of the same design (I normally only use steel crabs), after a free hanging abseil of a few hundred feet, I opened the crab holding my descender to find the latching part was no longer attached to the rest of the gate. I didn't deep six them but they did have a meeting with mr angle grinder.

 

[bbg]

So save weight elsewhere,where it doesn't matter so much. Er, couldn't you cycle to the marina in the mornings, or ease up on the chocolate fondue....?

Are you my wife?

 

[bilbobaggins]

Are you my wife?