Buck Turgidson
Well-Known Member
Permanently, no. But no need to drop it after every furl. Only if a) you need to use a different sail b) you want to reduce drag when racing or c) when you’re finished ?
Crusing Chute Snuffer
- Thread starter Cheeky Girl
- Start date
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Hoisting & lowering the asymetric can be done far safer from the cockpit. One just needs to go forward with the bag & to clip the sail on. Often the sail can be left by the shrouds, although I prefer to put it further forward. I tie the bag to the rail & undo the top so the sail can run free.
For the hoist I have the halyard back in the cockpit & I can get it up quicker as it is lighter ( No weight of the sock & plastic mouth). I am in the correct place to adjust the downhaul & the sheet.
For the drop I do not go over the boom as I have a stack pack. I run down wind. Let the clew fly, grab the sheet & with the friction of one loose turn round the winch the halyard runs free enough. Sometimes I do not need this & just flick the clutch on the cabin roof.
As the sail comes in I stuff it down below. Then I only have to take the halyard fwd & re align the sheet & I can pull the clew downhaul line in from the cockpit ( It is very long) I collect the sail bag.
When ready i go below & with a short line I tie the 3 corners to the grab handle by the steps. I feed the sail back along inside the cabin to the forward cabin. Then stuff it in the bag finishing with the 3 corners which are left on the top of the bag ready for next time. The short line holds the rings together.
If i use a snuffer it means that once hoisted I have to go forward on a rolling deck - look upwards as I try to un snuff & get dizzy. The sail jams in the mouth . I have to pull on the lines & I end up with a bunch at the head of the sail. Whilst it is rolling around I have to get back to the cockpit to gather in the sheets that are trailing in the water. I have to trim the down haul.
Hoisting is not so bad but most times sods law dictates that the lines for snuffing are outboard & a job to reach as they are on the wrong side of the sail & stick. Esp if it has rained & the sail is wet. The plastic mouth swings about & smashed my steaming light first time up. Then i still have to lower it with halyard that is in the cockpit. So I have to gather it in & get it in the bag whilst on a rolling deck. Trying to ease a halyard from the mast & grab a snuffer at the forestay is not easy. Sods law dictates that a boat comes along & I have to change course mid operation. Hence it all ends up in the drink. Would not want to do it in the Solent for sure. Then I have to lug the extra weight back along the deck.
The snuffer involves so much more deck work that for a sh sailor it is positively dangerous.
For the hoist I have the halyard back in the cockpit & I can get it up quicker as it is lighter ( No weight of the sock & plastic mouth). I am in the correct place to adjust the downhaul & the sheet.
For the drop I do not go over the boom as I have a stack pack. I run down wind. Let the clew fly, grab the sheet & with the friction of one loose turn round the winch the halyard runs free enough. Sometimes I do not need this & just flick the clutch on the cabin roof.
As the sail comes in I stuff it down below. Then I only have to take the halyard fwd & re align the sheet & I can pull the clew downhaul line in from the cockpit ( It is very long) I collect the sail bag.
When ready i go below & with a short line I tie the 3 corners to the grab handle by the steps. I feed the sail back along inside the cabin to the forward cabin. Then stuff it in the bag finishing with the 3 corners which are left on the top of the bag ready for next time. The short line holds the rings together.
If i use a snuffer it means that once hoisted I have to go forward on a rolling deck - look upwards as I try to un snuff & get dizzy. The sail jams in the mouth . I have to pull on the lines & I end up with a bunch at the head of the sail. Whilst it is rolling around I have to get back to the cockpit to gather in the sheets that are trailing in the water. I have to trim the down haul.
Hoisting is not so bad but most times sods law dictates that the lines for snuffing are outboard & a job to reach as they are on the wrong side of the sail & stick. Esp if it has rained & the sail is wet. The plastic mouth swings about & smashed my steaming light first time up. Then i still have to lower it with halyard that is in the cockpit. So I have to gather it in & get it in the bag whilst on a rolling deck. Trying to ease a halyard from the mast & grab a snuffer at the forestay is not easy. Sods law dictates that a boat comes along & I have to change course mid operation. Hence it all ends up in the drink. Would not want to do it in the Solent for sure. Then I have to lug the extra weight back along the deck.
The snuffer involves so much more deck work that for a sh sailor it is positively dangerous.
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Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
Pretty sure the drag would be a big deal for us too. We bought our boat to sail fast. Every sail is a race to us.
michael_w
Well-Known Member
FWIW A letterbox dowse doesn't need the halyard lead aft, you just have to move quickly. On the boat which needed the rag on the halyard, all the halyards where handled at the mast. Stack packs are a problem, which is why on my current boat I've just bought a conventional sail coat!
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
If I was going to have an additional furled sail on my boat I think that I would go for a code zero.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
A code zero has quite a narrow useful apparent wind angle. I like the idea, but it’s a lot of money for a sail that is so rarely genuinely useful. The wind is always either on the nose or up your arse. It is The Law.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Odd. I spoke to a Belgian friend that I meet when I go to Ostend. He has the same 31 ft boat as me. He says it is one of the best additions to his sail wardrobe & recommends it as a very useful sail. But then a Hanse has a small self tacking jib, so the extra sail area is welcome & can come in handy on a wide range of angles-- in spite of what you say. He does the RNSYC racing as a regular participant as well as some very long SH cruising. ie He went to the Orkneys & Norway SH from Ostend this year. So has found it very useful.
I suspect that your perception of wind angles is not necessarily correct either
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Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
Well, they are hammered when it comes to handicapping, for us we might get to use it close hauled in less than 5kn, at the expense of pointing, and at apparent angles of more than 65 degrees the asymmetric is faster. That’s a small slot in my book, and it might cost £2.5k. Which is why we don’t have one. And most ultra performance tris do. Their apparent wind never goes past 65 degrees.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I doubt that the OP was looking to race. No one racing would be poncing about with a snuffer in a race. Furthermore, he does not have a tri. Not really the boat of choice of the majority.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
The OP’s requirements didn’t enter my head. I was interested to see what had prompted your post on the subject of code zeros, a sail much more suited to my boat than any other amongst regular posters, but still not suitable enough. They’re s fashion statement for most boats, wild and whacky racers have them and people follow. Other Dragonflys have tried them, it doesn’t make them quicker from A to B, it does make them harder to sail to their handicap. It’ll be worse on a slower boat.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I know the owner of a Hanse 45 who also has one & he does not race his cruiser. He likes it as a cruising sail as well. Nothing to do with handicaps whatsoever. It does, he says, contribute to his performance. The owner is an experienced sailor with national championship wins in several dinghy classes to his name, so is no muppet.
As for Dragonflies- they are on a minority & really of no consequence to most on this forum.. I would have put them in the Wild & Wacky sector that you glibly refer to. The way a tri sails is entirely different to a displacement monohull, so a code zero would have to be used differently to when rigged on a monohull. I would imagine the apparent wind angle being a major factor.
Cheeky Girl
Well-Known Member
Daydream have you been watching us raise and lower with the present snuffer
I have been looking at a Code zero but with no bowsprint there is a fair bit of fabrication need for the pole and hence the costs go up even more.
RupertW
Well-Known Member
You won’t have to drop a snuffer straight away. If we think we may be using it later in the sail, even the next morning, then unless there are strong winds forecast the snuffer can stay hoisted with the tack temporarily tied to base of the mast but the tack line and sheets left in place. That way once the windward bit is out of the way it’s 30 seconds to roll away the genny and unsnuff the asymM.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I am not interested in cost. I note that you refer to "us", so that counts me out straight away, being SH. I expect that I can get my chute up, or down, just as quick as someone with a snuffer. The only difference being that I have to manually pack the bag afterwards.Daydream have you been watching us raise and lower with the present snuffer
I have been looking at a Code zero but with no bowsprint there is a fair bit of fabrication need for the pole and hence the costs go up even more.
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RupertW
Well-Known Member
Not quite the only difference - you won’t be able to unsnuff it in a couple of minutes 5 minutes later or even an hour later. If you have to pack the bag before the next use then that‘s it until the next trip unless you have the time and space to go below and rebag it whilst sailing.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I do not "snuff the sail. It goes in the sail bag, which is an open top bag. I have done it loads of times & it does not take long. As for the next trip that is rubbish. I have used the sail numerous times in a trip. When racing with a crew it gets done in minutes. But that is another matter. Sometimes it is not necessary to re bag. Just hoist it from the cockpit, being careful not to snag it if on the same tack. There is one SH sailor who has written a book on SH sailing( forget his name but he has posted here & is well respected) & he advocates hoisting the spinnaker from alongside the shrouds
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I note the way that you refer to "only 30 seconds". well of course anyone can unroll a genoa in 30 seconds, but you have omitted the time taken to release the lines, get them freed to the mast, get the genoa sheets from under the chute sheets , the clew downhaul, the snuffer lines out of the way etc & time spent tying the snuffer back to the mast.Then taking the slack out of the chute sheets in the cockpit etc . All that takes time. But you have carefully omitted that.
It sort of makes a mockery of your 30 secs. which , to be honest, is mostly taken up by your transit to the foredeck alone, by the time you have clipped on got out of the cockpit, made your way along the deck to the snuffer, regardless of anything else.
I would not be surprised ( if you are honest about it) if the whole operation start to finish, from when you decide to douse the sail, to when it is all sorted & you are settled down on the new course is more like 10-15 minutes. I expect that is a fair average for most 2 handed cruising crews. Of course you may not be in that catagory. But many on this forum are. I not sure that I would leave a snuffed sail up the mast if I had a radar reflector or steaming light for the thin cloth to flap & snag on let alone catch in the wind.
But to each his own & if that suits you then Ok. I have given my opinion of snuffers & others an opposing one. That is the benefit of the forum. It is all about open debate. Those considering whether to get one or not can look at both opinions & decide for themseves which path they will take.
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RupertW
Well-Known Member
I’m not trying to argue with you, I’m simply saying that a suffer negates the need to repack a bag, which you mentioned yourself, and as part of sailing single hand, not with crew where you say it can be done in minutes which is still longer than unsnuffing and presumably longer again single handed.
When I’ve occasionally been racing then I wouldn’t use an asym (unless part of some class rule) or a snuffer, but it has some advantages to some sailors cruising, including immediate reuse (you don’t even have to drop it).
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Point taken. ?
michael_w
Well-Known Member
I've found a snuffer needs even more careful packing into its bag/turtle than a un-snuffed kite. The wretched up/down lines are always getting tangled or end up on the wrong side. In a pinch with regular kite you can just check one luff for twists and hoist away.
