Cruising laminate genoa

[harstonwood]

Anyone got any experience of the cruising laminate headsails on the markets?
Had some quoted from a few lofts now, and one from Hyde is for a voyager cruising Genoa using a laminate of taffeta and polyester
Also had a quote from crusader for a hydranet Genoa

It's more about making the right choice than the money? Anyone got experience of these? Would propose to use for 4 months of the year and keep on the furler
Cruising and some racing
Thanks

 

[Dockhead]

I have two carbon/technora laminate headsails from Sanders -- a 95% blade and a 120% yankee jib -- and I am very well pleased with them. The shape is far better than I've ever experienced with Dacron, and you have a great range of sail trim which suddenly makes sailing a lot more fun than it was before, not to mention faster. I think the virtues of laminate become more important with larger boats, larger sails, and greater loads (which go up geometrically with the length of the boat). Probably not needed as much on boats under 40'.

I'm still in my first season with them, so can't say yet how well they hold up, but the new laminates are bonded in an autoclave, and I have high hopes that they will be pretty durable. Mine have taffeta on both sides.

Another reported problem with laminate sails (besides delamination) is mildew. This can effect especially sails which are put away wet, or which live year round on furlers. Dacron is definitely less susceptible to this.

Everything is a compromise, and you'll have to decide for yourself which compromise is right for you, but so far I am well pleased having laminate sails for cruising.

 

[Shuggy]

I'm not sure that I would classify Hydrant as a laminate: it looks and feels very much like a Dacron sail but has low stretch characteristics. I have a Crusader Hydranet sail and I am very pleased with the end product, which has performed very well in some very strong winds without noticeable stretch. It's a huge sail (c.160% genoa) and the old Dacron one was very baggy when it was replaced in 2012. If you search on here you may find the thread where delivery was all a bit last-minute, but I have to say that I am very pleased with the sail three seasons in. It's on the furler 7 months a year and has suffered very little degradation, despite one season when I left it bent on all winter.

I'm thinking of a cruising laminate mainsail but I am nervous about mildew.

ETA: Here's a pic of the Crusader Hydranet in action. Forgive the line in the water - you'll see bits of spinnaker on the foredeck: we were fresh out of a kite panic...

 

[dunedin]

What type of boat and what shape of sail? Suspect that the degree of improvement will differ based upon boat type.

We have a North soft laminate jib - but made more complex with vertical battens (which are frankly a practical hassle for which the jury remains out on value).
Sail set is very good - but came with UV coating only, not a UV strip. And a lot of the stitching on the leach came apart recently, due to UV deterioration after under 4 years of French sun.
Also was very green when we got it due to damp.

 

[Dockhead]

I'm not sure that I would classify Hydrant as a laminate: it looks and feels very much like a Dacron sail but has low stretch characteristics. I have a Crusader Hydranet sail and I am very pleased with the end product, which has performed very well in some very strong winds without noticeable stretch. It's a huge sail (c.160% genoa) and the old Dacron one was very baggy when it was replaced in 2012. If you search on here you may find the thread where delivery was all a bit last-minute, but I have to say that I am very pleased with the sail three seasons in. It's on the furler 7 months a year and has suffered very little degradation, despite one season when I left it bent on all winter.

I'm thinking of a cruising laminate mainsail but I am nervous about mildew.

ETA: Here's a pic of the Crusader Hydranet in action. Forgive the line in the water - you'll see bits of spinnaker on the foredeck: we were fresh out of a kite panic...
View attachment 53676

Hydranet is definitely not a laminate. It's a woven cloth with Dyneema stuck in among the Dacron.

As such it has none of the drawbacks of laminate. Whether it has any of the virtues is the subject of conflicting reports.

 

[Shuggy]

Hydranet is definitely not a laminate.

That was kinda my point - perhaps I'm too subtle ;-)

 

[dunedin]

Another reported problem with laminate sails (besides delamination) is mildew. This can effect especially sails which are put away wet, or which live year round on furlers. Dacron is definitely less susceptible to this.

So how do you avoid putting sails away wet sometimes if sail in the UK? Most of us try to minimise this, but it sailing on a wet day what else can you do?

Ditto re living all year on a furler (though if a replacement sail it can be a good idea to use the old sails as "winter sails" if stay afloat)

 

[Dockhead]

That was kinda my point - perhaps I'm too subtle ;-)

I was agreeing with you

:flowers:

 

[Dockhead]

So how do you avoid putting sails away wet sometimes if sail in the UK? Most of us try to minimise this, but it sailing on a wet day what else can you do?

Ditto re living all year on a furler (though if a replacement sail it can be a good idea to use the old sails as "winter sails" if stay afloat)

Even Dacron sails mildew, so you dry them out ASAP if you have had to put them away wet, just like you would with any sail, only more diligently.

 

[pagoda]

Anyone got any experience of the cruising laminate headsails on the markets?
Had some quoted from a few lofts now, and one from Hyde is for a voyager cruising Genoa using a laminate of taffeta and polyester
Also had a quote from crusader for a hydranet Genoa

It's more about making the right choice than the money? Anyone got experience of these? Would propose to use for 4 months of the year and keep on the furler
Cruising and some racing
Thanks

We bought a 135% Hyde Cruise Laminate Genoa in 2010, along with a gennaker, and were well pleased with the performance. Minimal stretch, better pointing etc etc.
Some discolouration in the exposed parts on the foil now, but the boat still sails well (so it bothers me less). Professional sail cleaning helps.
It has a foam luff - which is good for maintaining the shape, but tends to lead to a slightly bulkier roll-up on the foil. (read some more windage than a tightly rolled cloth sail).
It's important to avoid rolling it away tight- as occasionally happens when it's windy. I typically un roll and re- roll with less tension.
We liked it so much we replaced the main with a fully battened main of the same material. That was also a step change in performance, and that lives in a stack pack. Only drawback- had to have the stack pack bag extended a little.

Graeme

 

[harstonwood]

Thanks for all the replies so far, very informative
Pagoda/Graeme,...how is the sail when reefed in a couple of rolls? Thats when my current sail fails, and am hoping a laminate job will point better, and still perform when rolled in a bit
Decisions Decisions!

 

[dunedin]

Thanks for all the replies so far, very informative
Pagoda/Graeme,...how is the sail when reefed in a couple of rolls? Thats when my current sail fails, and am hoping a laminate job will point better, and still perform when rolled in a bit
Decisions Decisions!

Does the current sail have a foam luff? If not that is a first essential. In my experience for pointing ability reefed the foam luff is transformational. The laminate improvement is more marginal by comparison

 

[pagoda]

Thanks for all the replies so far, very informative
Pagoda/Graeme,...how is the sail when reefed in a couple of rolls? Thats when my current sail fails, and am hoping a laminate job will point better, and still perform when rolled in a bit
Decisions Decisions!

The foam luff inserts take much of the potential sag out of the equation. You still need to think about forestay tension for optimum upwind performance (and backstay loads -particularly on a masthead rig.)
Our old genny was so saggy we could not pre-tension it enough to get rid of the sag.
Hugely better now with the newer sail.

 

[harstonwood]

The foam luff inserts take much of the potential sag out of the equation. You still need to think about forestay tension for optimum upwind performance (and backstay loads -particularly on a masthead rig.)
Our old genny was so saggy we could not pre-tension it enough to get rid of the sag.
Hugely better now with the newer sail.

Thanks for that
Yes backstay tension is on my to do list, indeed it's a thread on the racing forum
I hope to sort this out this winter. I think my elvstrom sail has a foam luff, but it really doesn't reef well
See photo!

Would you recommend the Hyde sail?

 

[fishermantwo]

Hyde sails are made in the Philippines. I have a cruising laminate headsail with all the options designed by a local sailmaker and built by this lot,
http://www.china-sail-factory.com/index3.aspx

Three years old now and still looks new. Stays on the furler full time and gets used weekly. Check out china sails brands they build for and find your favourite sailmaker and get him to design it.

 

[Resolution]

I bought a North Soft Norlam furling genoa in 2013 for my 42 ft masthead rig boat. It replaced a slightly larger dacron sail. The improvement in sail shape has been noticeable and some thousands of miles later it continues to look good, both fully-extended and when part-furled. It does have a foam luff. No problem with mould, but then everything is dry mid-summer in the Med.
We take it off when leaving the boat for the winter, of course.
Peter

 

[geoid96]

We have had an Elvstrom Epex laminate furling genoa since 2010. It has effectively been up summer and winter since then. The sail shape is still excellent with no leach hook or flap and shows no significant sign of degredation or mould. This is mainly due hoisting a genoa cover when not in use. The sail has a foam luff. While clearly not as good as dedicated smaller sails, the shape when reefed is still fine for getting to windward.

 

[ditchcrawler]

I had a cruising laminate triradial genoa on my Moody31 from Hyde which has now done 8 seasons .It has a foam luff and still sets very well.
I was aware that they manufactured in the Philippines as they moved their production there several years ago and from the photos it looks state of the art.
Some other manufacturers were rather coy about where their sails were actually manufactured.The service from Hyde was first class.
They came to my boat to measure and bought the sails to the boat and fitted them to make sure that all was OK.
Last year I had the sacrificial strip replaced.
I have not suffered from any mildew but I take the precaution of trying to make sure the sail is dry before I furl it.

 

[johnalison]

We have just replaced a laminate jib from Kemp after twelve years of use, including an annual 3 month cruise. The difference from the non-laminate predecessor was remarkable. Although both were foam-luffed, the laminate held its shape in all wind strengths even when part-furled and I think we gained about ten degrees with more drive when tacking in moderate to strong winds.

I didn't notice any mildew problem, except minimally around the clew which was easy to treat. My new jib has a rope luff which is supposed to reduce the likelihood of mildew.

 

[snooks]

Laminates, membrane, hydranet, hybrid pro, technora, vectran, carbon, polyester dacron...Welcome to the minefield of sail choice :0)

If you can wait 4 weeks there's a feature coming out in YM about this very topic :0)

In the mean time it helps to know what you're talking about. Are you talking actually talking about laminates or membrane sails?

Let's start at the beginning...
Woven Polyester/Dacron comes in all types from cheap as chips OEM sails that will get you on the water, to ripstop grid which have more stability and are good for high aspect ratio sails

Then you can have reinforced woven sails which add Dyneem, and Vectran into the weave. Both are UHMPE (low stretch) which give the cloth a longer life and reduce stretch.

Laminates can be a scrim (loose grid) of bog-standard polyester, up to carbon, Technora and Kevlar. The scrim in laminated in between mylar which give the scrim directional stability - Laminates are made made from laminate cloth which come in rolls and – like woven sails – sewn in multi panel arrangement.

Membrane sails are made for that yacht, the load paths are mapped, and laid down in UHMPE, they can be single-piece (the sail foil is made of one piece, built in one go, on a three dimensional mould, then finished) or Multi-piece where the load paths are mapped and made on a flat table and then the seams (of which there may just be three or four) are joined to create the foil - Quantum Genesis and Elvstrom EPEX are the most common names.

Some laminate their membrane sails with pressure, others use vacuum.

Some lofts have their own membrane houses – North produce their 3Di or 3Dl sail in their own place for example – but smaller lofts also have access to generic membrane houses.

Which should you choose? Read the article in a few weeks in Yachting Monthly, but It depends on your sailing, your boat and how deep your pockets are :0)