Cruising boats with large, open transoms - why?

Binman said:
Time will tell, but not for me, not for use of young children, anyone says there safe for youngsters wants there head tested. You need to wear life jacket and be secured at all times, they scare me to death.
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I suspect it would only scare you to death until you tried one, then realized you'd been sailing for a couple of hours and completely forgotten about it and realized it was a non-issue. How often have you been saved from being washed overboard by a closed transom? For me the answer is "never".
 
I think the RMs look good and I suspect this similarity with open 60s etc is part of their marketing approach. For the type of sailing we do this type of boat wouldn't make it to the long list never mind the short list. We sail long distance. One consideration for ocean crossing is a safe and secure cockpit. Bashing to weather we need a space that provides shelter from spray and wind and good dry storage. This isn't an issue of a few hours where you grin and bear it, its day after day. To be fair to the RMs, lots of modern yachts have a great cockpit for entertaining in a marina but are not great for making passages in poor weather. This is not a criticism of the RM. I think if you are pootling about the Algarve or Greek island then this would be a nice boat. If you are making a west to east passage across the Atlantic then I can think of several more appropriate choices.
 
geem said:
I think the RMs look good and I suspect this similarity with open 60s etc is part of their marketing approach. For the type of sailing we do this type of boat wouldn't make it to the long list never mind the short list. We sail long distance. One consideration for ocean crossing is a safe and secure cockpit. Bashing to weather we need a space that provides shelter from spray and wind and good dry storage. This isn't an issue of a few hours where you grin and bear it, its day after day. To be fair to the RMs, lots of modern yachts have a great cockpit for entertaining in a marina but are not great for making passages in poor weather. This is not a criticism of the RM. I think if you are pootling about the Algarve or Greek island then this would be a nice boat. If you are making a west to east passage across the Atlantic then I can think of several more appropriate choices.
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Exactly what I was saying above - it's a question of horses for courses! The vast majority of yachts sold never go more than a few miles off-shore - they are coast-hopping platforms that skip between marinas. The criteria for that style of use are very different to those for ocean crossing. I do wonder how many of the people here that criticise modern boat design for being unsuitable for crossing the Atlantic have ever gone more than a few miles off-shore. We are all guilty of this to some extent - in my youth I used to drive Landrovers and had one all set up with snorkel, gaiters and safari roof when the deepest water it ever saw was six inches and it might have been used in temperatures around thirty degrees twice per year! :-)
 
We have the open back on our Jeanneau and it does take some getting used to.

The 'pro's' : easy to access the dinghy and for swimming. Nice for kids to dangle feet in the water and play when in harbour/anchored. Great to see and hear the 'roar' of the stern wave when travelling fast under sail!

The 'con's' : My wife still dislikes it after 2 seasons (2000 miles) and is nervous of the 'openness'. There is little for the helmsperson to hold except a thin guard wire when heeled and helming from the centre of the cockpit.

We have never lost anything through the back, but we have put a spray-dodger across the wires to give the impression of something 'there' for reassurance (which we luckily put pockets in which hold binoculars/ cans beer for the helm).

Overall, no real benefit but I would not let it stop you choosing a good boat if that's all that was wrong with it.
 
NPMR,

thanks for a balanced sensible post.

Personally I don't like the idea as I believe in secure cockpits where one can put things down without the risk of them going straight out the back, that goes for on the mooring or mid-Channel.

I have sailed dinghies with open transoms where it makes sense ( having halliards trail after capsizes was an example learned a long time ago, meant to show stuff does wander ) and no doubt if actually racing something like an RM, with a mind-set of blasting short distances with the need to drain spray & waves not having junk handy like a cruiser, it would work then.
 
Our Bav 36 has a flap down stern - a big one and we get a lot of extra room when at anchor or in port. It was one of features that SWMBO liked and it mean't coming from a MOBO we didn't lose the swim platform when the sun was out. I agree with others as I have raced on a J109 with an open stern and its a non-issue. It doesn't feel unsafe and you soon get used to it. In fact you feel very connected with what is happening. Horses for courses I guess.
 
Twister_Ken said:
Couldn't resist. 200nm offshore, 12km of water under us...

[video]http://vid66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/twisterken/P1050720.mp4[/video]
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And your point is? The stern of your boat does not even remotely resemble the RM. You have stern seats and fixed rails, and the wheel steering is central and has good bracing positions when heeled.

Look at the photo I posted earlier of an RM and try to imagine helming that in a blow with a wet deck with no foot braces. If you slipped you would tumble down the huge wide transom and possibly under the guard rail.

There is no way that I could sail a boat like that single-handed or short-handed as it would be too difficult moving between the helm and the primary winch.
 
Ric said:
And your point is? The stern of your boat does not even remotely resemble the RM. You have stern seats and fixed rails, and the wheel steering is central and has good bracing positions when heeled.

Look at the photo I posted earlier of an RM and try to imagine helming that in a blow with a wet deck with no foot braces. If you slipped you would tumble down the huge wide transom and possibly under the guard rail.

There is no way that I could sail a boat like that single-handed or short-handed as it would be too difficult moving between the helm and the primary winch.
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That's not where you started... "I really like a lot of features of the RM Yachts, but one feature that really doesn't appeal at all is the wide open transom. What is the market appeal of this feature? I can understand that on a heavily crewed hard-driven racing yacht in the southern oceans that an open transom might be useful for evacuating waves that come over the bows - but what is the point on a (admittedly fast) cruising yacht? It just looks like a death-trap to me. The helming position (on the twin wheel boats) also looks positively perilous." ...nor is it the way the thread developed. Most concerns seem to be about 'falling out the back', whether crew or kit, that's your 'death trap'. Those fears seem overstated to me - who has sailed an open transom boat extensively over the last five years - and others. Are there any instances of people being swept to their death from open transom boats?

Granted my open transom is not as wide as the RM, but a hole is a hole.

As to your concern about the helming position, I see where you are coming from, but given the semi-custom nature of RMs, adding some strategically placed foot braces would be very easy. As would putting some netting across the stern if it made people feel safer.

The proof of the pudding will be whether others like and buy RMs, even if you are not standing in the queue to put in an order.
 
Even if people buy them I'm not sure it would be proof of the pudding, there are some weird people about - witness the Macgregor, Austin Allegro, AeroCar...

Meanwhile Ric is right, Twister Ken's cockpit is far more secure than the jobs we were discussing - busy autopilot though ! :)
 
Having spoken to the general manager of RM on a number of occasions in my own purchase, I can say that they are specifically designed to be practical fast cruisers. They are not trying to compete in the coastal hopping market, where many of their features are an overkill. For example, they do try to cater for people who don't have access to full services of somewhere like the Solent.

I haven't specifically discussed the open transom, but I suspect it is open because it is very wide (giving the power to make them go fast). In the event of pooping the last thing you want is several tonnes of water being held in a cockpit because the drains are overhelmed - the open bit is a direct safety feature of the wide hull.

If if that worries you they provide a fold down transom, but crucially it still has a big gap at the floor level, reinforcing the above point.
 
I suspect that part of the answer to this is the height and area of the cockpit. If you have a cockpit with a large area, fairly high above the waterline to accommodate a roomy aft cabin below it, you need to make sure it can drain very rapidly in the event of it filling with water, because of the adverse effects on stability of the additional weight and the free-surface effect. If, on the other hand, you have a smaller cockpit, not extending very far from the centreline and with the sole close to the waterline, the effect on stability of it filling with water would be a lot less and rapid draining would be less crucial. So you pay your money and make your choice - roomy aft cabin and cockpit together with an open transom or less roomy cockpit that things are less likely to escape from but smaller or absent aft cabin.
 
alan_d said:
I suspect that part of the answer to this is the height and area of the cockpit. If you have a cockpit with a large area, fairly high above the waterline to accommodate a roomy aft cabin below it, you need to make sure it can drain very rapidly in the event of it filling with water, because of the adverse effects on stability of the additional weight and the free-surface effect. If, on the other hand, you have a smaller cockpit, not extending very far from the centreline and with the sole close to the waterline, the effect on stability of it filling with water would be a lot less and rapid draining would be less crucial. So you pay your money and make your choice - roomy aft cabin and cockpit together with an open transom or less roomy cockpit that things are less likely to escape from but smaller or absent aft cabin.
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Yes, that is an interesting consideration. However, I think that you can still get very quick water evacuation without necessarily having the transom completely open.

I think part of the reason for the precarious helming position on the wheeled RMs is that the ancestors of these boats were all tiller controlled and cockpit layout is really still designed around a tiller. The primary and tertiary winches are all positioned forwards and inboard, where they are very handy if you are helming with a tiller. Also, with a tiller you would be much better protected by the roof and sprayhood. The wheeled steering has been added as an afterthought, rather than being integral to the design.

I spoke with the GM of RM at Cannes and apparently tiller control is still a no-cost option on all the RM wheeled range, but nobody has taken the option since the introduction of wheeled steering.
 
My concern with having an open transom, is being pooped. The RM design should be light enough and sail fast enough to prevent this happening. What happens when this design is adopted by heavier and slower yachts, of a more cruising nature, should be the concern. If a large wave does strike the transom and flows into the cockpit, what happens then? Is there anything to stop this flooding the cabin? A bridge deck would certainly stop plenty of water entering the cabin, also protecting the stability of the yacht. From the photos on the RM Yachts website, http://www.rm-yachts.com/en/, you can see in the photographs (1070 are best) that there is a minimal step into the cabin. They also show how wide the transom is and how exposed the helmsman can be.

Would I purchase a yacht with an open transom? Maybe. I have sailed many racing yachts in the past, including putting yachts like the Nicholson 30 on the plane - a yacht not designed for that to not happen! Currently I sail with a dog, so an open transom would be ruled out on a safety basis for her.
 
Just one further comment, my RM was the easiest boat to pee off, bar none. That was because the multiple life-lines across the stern were above hip height, so you could just lean against them and relax.....
 
I like the solution of an open transom with a flap ( Bavaria, Hanse ................)
In light winds and calm waters you can sail with the flap down and use the "terrace" .
If winds speed up and waves get higher you just close the flap.
In port it increases the living space,especially when moored stern to.
In harbors which are not so safe, you close the "draw bridge" preventing uninvited people to board.
I have added solid grab handles ( with attachment rings for lifebelts ) on both helm stations and of course foot rests.
 
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joyfull said:
I wouldn't buy a cruising boat without an open transom. How else are you expected to board from a tender. Climb over the rail? No thanks.
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I guess there are degrees of openness - most modern boats have at least a "walk through transom" with some form of gate or plug that can close it when at sea. The boats being discussed here have a completely open transom across its full width. Ours is fully open, but has a rear panel that can be pulled up from the floor to create a wall about 18" high - enough to stop items rolling out of the back, but not really a safety feature - I can easily step over it.
 
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