Crossing the Tss

[Sarum28]

On 26th July we are planning to cross from Ramsgate to Boulogne, at what point would anyone recommend crossing the TSS, keeping an aspect of 90 degrees of course. Thanks in anticipation.


<hr width=100% size=1>Jonathan & Avril

 

[Marsupial]

Hi

I do this a lot, cross the TSS that is.

The rules say ships head at 90 deg to the TSS, the coast guard measures the heading.

From Ramsgate go south, round the South foreland, you can travel west along the inshore lane without trouble, turn almost due south such that you take a course that will leave the Varn to Starboard and ZC2 to port. On the french side follow the coast to Boulogne. Make sure you enter between the forts at the entrance to the outer harbour, the remains of a wall exists to the east of the entrance, dont cross it.

If you leave Ramsgate on a rising tide you will find that the boats head will be around 155 deg all the way across the TSS with hardly any correction at ZC2, the tide will take you down.

When you enter the outer harbour there is a whitish mark on the wall to starboard, the channel is dredged in line with this and the second block of flats - check your chart for accurate pilotage. At high water you should be OK anywhere but I have seen yachts agound inside the outer harbour.

Because the bottom is all stirred up I have found that often echo sounders dont work very well as you get close to the inner harbour entrance.

Leave Bologne 2 hours before high to get home.

Hope this helps

David


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[AndrewB]

I agree with this passage plan. The coastguards aren't really that tough on an exact 90 heading across, our club cruises are regularly 20 degrees either way. So you can cross from off Dover via Varne lightship to ZC2 buoy and so to Boulogne.

Don't forget that when crossing the first lane you are the stand-on vessel and ships will normally turn to avoid you - but take care as a few don't. When entering Boulogne observe the lights, Green - Green - White and you are free to proceed, Green - White - Green you must call up (usually means a ferry is coming in). The old marina was quite full last weekend but nothing like as crowded as it has been in the past in the summer, before the Bassin Napoleon was opened. An overnight charge of 19.63 euros for a 10m yacht with 2 aboard is expensive by French standards.

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[bumblefish]

Are you quite sure? Sailing vessels and motor vessels under 20m should not impede the progress of motor vessels navigating the TSS at any time. I think it is unlikely that they will consider you to be a stand-on vessel so I would not be surprised if a few did not turn to avoid you until a risk of collision situation had developed!

<hr width=100% size=1>...If you can find the simple solution to a complex problem, you've got it wrong!.........

 

[AndrewB]

In practice it doesn't work like that. At least nine out of ten ships in the Dover Straight will give way to a crossing yacht as required by IRPCS rule 15 (starboard side rule). Of those that don't, some will be constrained in their manoeuvrability, and these will be announced on CG Information Broadcasts which should be listened to while crossing.

Note that ships in the Dover Straight TSS will always assume a yacht is under power for the purpose of interpreting the rules, regardless of whether it is actually sailing.

A container ship will start to turn clear at 3 or more miles away, for a small coaster it could be as little as 1 mile. It is important to watch carefully for signs they are changing course. If a ship has not given way at 1 mile, then urgent evasion action must be taken! (Exclude the ferries from this, which are highly manoeuvrable and will come closer).

No explicit guidance has ever been offered on how small boats should interpret their responsibilities under rule 10(j). Personally I think it would be far simpler if it was made clear this rule meant that small boats always give way. But it doesn't, nor is interpreted as such by the majority of ships. I regard it as a requirement not to oblige any ship to make a sudden or major speed/course change, most typically because of the proximity of other ships. But an unexpected course change by the yacht, even with the intention of getting out the way, might actually impede the ship in this sense.

If you are uncertain about a situation for any reason, it is more effective to radio the CG rather than a ship direct. Also you should call if you become unable to maintain a speed of 4 knots while in the TSS.

There are some who argue that regardless of the rules, you should always give way to a ship. However nothing is more dangerous than two vessels each simultaneously giving way to the other, neither sure what the other is up to. It is useless to suggest that in a busy place like the Dover Straight you should always give way so early that there can no possibility of a misunderstanding. This strategy will mean you never get across.

PS If you think yachts have problems, how about the pilot boats accompanying Channel Swimmers!

 

[squidge]

Stand on ? Crikey I would need to have cast iron underpants to withstand that one.
Never in the field of human conflict (me against container ship). Just do a 180 and go the other way till they pass./forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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[AndrewB]

\"Go the other way until they pass\"

And then the next one ... and then the next one ... and then the next one ... and then ...

Seriously though, turning around isn't as sensible as it sounds. If they are the give-way vessel, container ships will turn to pass behind you when they are almost too far away for you to see that they have done so. (I didn't appreciate this until I was able to watch their movements on a radar).

If you do a 180, they will then have to turn again. But by and large, they are resigned to yachts acting like headless chickens in the shipping lanes.

 

[Marsupial]

Re: \"Go the other way until they pass\"

The rule here is that little boats give way to big boats.

The technique I employ to deal with TSS traffic is to decide if the target will pass ahead of me, if it will then I dont worry. If I think I can pass ahead of it then keep a sharp watch on it apply all the means of propulsion I have and pass, but I like to pass at least 3 or 4 cables ahead.

However, there are times when there are lots of the things, in lines or four or five abreast. It becomes difficult to make a general rule here but my tactic is to turn and follow the direction of the TSS I am in and let them overtake, then resume my course. Turning round is not an option if there are vessels on your aft quarter.

I think you will find that the rule for a normal craft, ie not one with a swimmer is 5 knots SOG, again because that is the only one the CG can measure.

I cross about 20 times per season, its not often that I cannot keep on course by adjusting speed, rather than changing direction.

Making contact with either the coast guard or the ship is a last resort, as it could end up in a VHF assisted collision.

Cheers


David

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[squidge]

Re: \"Go the other way until they pass\"

Sorry , i ment to say before i enter the TSS i will wait for a gap, well at least not being able to see anything comming my way. and then if & when a ship comes along i have in the past done as Marsupial and go with the flow untill they pass. Thinking about it where i cross there is a no go bit in the middle where i can wait .Dont have radar, just a hand bearing compass and weak knees.

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[kimhollamby]

TSS issues

I agree that the requirements of Rule 9 and 10 not to impede are not explicit in relation to other rules but have always chosen to inteprete them literally -- ie not to force a ship to do anything at all. If that means holding off so that the risk of collision does not develop (ie before stand-on / give-way becomes an issue) then that is surely an effective solution? It certainly complies with Rule 2 in terms of keeping your vessel and crew safe.

The Channel swim pilots are a different issue -- they are recognised as themselves having an issue with manouevring and are assisted in the Coastguard broadcasts accordingly. That said, if they suspect they are likely to get run down they have to consider an emergency retrieval of the swimmer and move out of the way -- I have been on a 'swim' and nearly saw this happen thanks to a flag of convenience RoRo that didn't seem to have anyone on the bridge as it swept past. This is a difficult call for the Channel swim skippers because once the swimmer touches to boat his / her attempt is over.

As for crossing angle, I know at least one skipper that was spotted for 25 degrees off, by plane, despatched from UK after several attempts to identify on VHF. Ferries seem to have a tacit understanding they can get away with about 15 degrees but have always personally preferred to head at the correct 90 degrees to traffic and let the tide do the work of taking me closer to where I want to be. There's a range of options from Ramsgate and many of them make short work of the crossing, given a decent tide and the right timings.

Finally, collision avoidance via VHF has been explicitly damned in many MCA reports over the years as being a hinderance rather than a help, primarily because it is difficult to ensure ultimate proof that the ship or yacht you are talking to is the one you are looking at. Okay, that doesn't stop many of the ships passing through the Dover Strait talking with each other (and swearing at each other sometimes) but it is worth bearing in mind -- nowhere in the colregs will you find a rule about using radio as a means of collision avoidance.





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[AndrewB]

Re: TSS issues

It would be really good to see an informed debate on this topic in YM and perhaps some clarification by those with direct responsibility for IRPCS. Certainly, the present confusion surrounding rule 10(j) is not satisfactory, with some ships in the Dover straight TSS automatically giving way to yachts approaching on their starboard side, while others stand on. It would be so much easier and far less nail-biting if the rules stated and all understood that small vessels always give way: or perhaps, as I believe has been proposed in the past, that joining and crossing vessels give way to those traversing a TSS.

Regarding VHF, you are quite right that it is generally useless for a yacht to try to contact a ship in a TSS. Maybe the situation will change with AIS but I suspect it is as much cultural as anything. I am sure you did not mean to imply though, that the CG is indifferent to yachts having problems while in the TSS. In fact the Dover CG are very helpful if called, and on one occasion I have heard them contact a ship on behalf of a yacht. However, their role is restricted in certain respects, and they will not tell a yachtsman what to do, except in a Mayday situation.

Near misses on channel swims certainly occur, but I cannot recall ever hearing of a pilot abandoning a swim solely because of a potential collision situation. I'll ask a couple of pilots when I see them this weekend.

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[peterb]

Re: TSS issues

If I remember rightly, the Nautical Institute (or one of its members) had a project a little while ago in which they posed several different scenarios related to Colregs, and asked mariners what they would have done. One of these related to traffic crossing a TSS, and in the analysis about 90% of the answers on this one were wrong.

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[halcyon]

Re: TSS issues

With ref to rule 10 (j) i.e. not to impede power-driven vessel's in TSS, then Rule 8(f) becomes relevent to amplify.
The second point that confusses me is this 90 degree crossing for a sailing vesel, in reading the threads I get the impression that a course made good is the right TSS crossing to stick to. While when we did our shore side YM it was the ships heading that was to be at right angles to the TSS, thus the course made good was anything to hold the heading. The critical thing was to present a true side on view of your boat to oncoming ships.

Any comment??


Brian

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[powerskipper]

Re: TSS issues

Crossing the TSS is just a matter of crossing at right angels[course please not ground track] to the lanes,
Give the Big boys a chance, they need as much of us to ping there Radar off as possible.
There was a guy so the story goes who commissioned a boat and requested that the interior hull be lined with silver foil, it was done , hopefully to give a stronger radar signal, but in tests alas!!! it made not one iota of difference to its radar signature.
Have not read whole thread so may be answering out of context

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Julie

 

[halcyon]

Re: TSS issues

Think you agree with what we were told, i.e. heading at right angles to TSS, not ground track.

Brian

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