Crossing Shipping Lanes

RichardS said:
That's a very generous interpretation of Jenny's post.

She needs to come back and tell us whether or not she meant she she always adopts the role of give way vessel when close to commercial shipping. :)

Richard
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I prefer to think the best of people and give the benefit of doubt until proven otherwise:)

Although if you read my last post you will see I make an exception for anyone in charge of any other vessel, I tend to assume the worst and hope to be proven wrong rather than be disappointed.:)
 
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I doubt if many on here have experience of controlling a ship, certainly not the large leviathans passing through the TSS, and so have no idea how manoeuvrable they are, yet the Col Regs rather expect us to take a view what is, or is not impeding them and to know exactly what the scenario looks like from the ships bridge.

As such, I think few of us could judge if a ship could or could not make a course correction to avoid collision, and so in practice must assume that they cannot and just keep out of the way in good time. AIS is very helpful, certainly sailing out of Dover as I do.
 
Doineann said:
I doubt if many on here have experience of controlling a ship, certainly not the large leviathans passing through the TSS, and so have no idea how manoeuvrable they are, yet the Col Regs rather expect us to take a view what is, or is not impeding them and to know exactly what the scenario looks like from the ships bridge.

As such, I think few of us could judge if a ship could or could not make a course correction to avoid collision, and so in practice must assume that they cannot and just keep out of the way in good time. AIS is very helpful, certainly sailing out of Dover as I do.
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I would agree with your logic.:) Particularly anywhere near Dover
 
Doineann said:
I doubt if many on here have experience of controlling a ship, certainly not the large leviathans passing through the TSS, and so have no idea how manoeuvrable they are, yet the Col Regs rather expect us to take a view what is, or is not impeding them and to know exactly what the scenario looks like from the ships bridge.

As such, I think few of us could judge if a ship could or could not make a course correction to avoid collision, and so in practice must assume that they cannot and just keep out of the way in good time. AIS is very helpful, certainly sailing out of Dover as I do.
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The problem with that is that in practice when the ship is give way and risk of collision exists it will make a small alteration in course a long way away to allow the stand on vessel to pass ahead.

Any action by the stand on vessel other than standing on (as required by the rules) makes the chance of collision more likely.

The whole point of Colregs is to make the actions of all vessels predictable and if you don't comply you make the situation more dangerous.
 
yes agree- it makes it difficult to have a concept of 'give way/stand on vessel' when you don't have confidence that the big ship has clocked you on AIS/visually.
 
BlowingOldBoots said:
Paul it is very easy. You just head across at right angles to the shipping lane, when a ship gets near you turn parallel to it, in the direction of travel for the lane that you are in, then when it passes, turn across it's stern and continue on at right angles as before, repeat as required. You can even confirm this with the ship in question by VHF. I learned this from John Goodes videos on the matter and have used it with good effect. No body gets impeded.
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Whilst I agree it may involve altering course to port if the SoV is on your Stb...
I was told make a course alteration that is bloody obvious... like going round in circles..
 
bedouin said:
The problem with that is that in practice when the ship is give way and risk of collision exists it will make a small alteration in course a long way away to allow the stand on vessel to pass ahead.

Any action by the stand on vessel other than standing on (as required by the rules) makes the chance of collision more likely.

The whole point of Colregs is to make the actions of all vessels predictable and if you don't comply you make the situation more dangerous.
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No.
Doineann is making an assumption erring on the side of safety. As required by rule 10 and avoiding impeding the traffic off Dover where he sails.

What you are suggesting. Is an unsafe assumption. Based on the possible, practice by some commercial ships making a small alteration which is not readily apparent. The small alteration may have had nothing to do with any small vessel.
And the Next commercial vessel may not take this kind of action.

If a commercial vessel does make a small alteration many miles away. And when it gets close it is passing astern there is no need for any action by Doineann or any of the rest of us. The commercial vessel was not impeded and no risk of collision exists.

Setting across a traffic lane with the expectation the ship several miles away will alter a have no problem altering few degrees and in fact will is not a wise move. It is not only not wise its a violation of rule 10.

All sorts of you are going to disagree with me saying this:)

Some OOW may choose to do this. I can say a lot of OOW will do quite the opposite. You don't know which one is on the bridge.
 
paulburn said:
yes agree- it makes it difficult to have a concept of 'give way/stand on vessel' when you don't have confidence that the big ship has clocked you on AIS/visually.
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You never do.

AIS will not change a bad watch keeping practice into a good watch keeping practice. The OOW if he or she is doing his job properly they will keep a proper lookout using all the equipment they have. Including AIS. Good watch keeping practice the old fashioned eye ball is still the No 1 piece of equipment on the bridge. Next in priority is the RADAR's. Some of the new guys might get this ass backwards. If they are not paying attention to those the chance they are going to check AIS is not high.

The time when a ship is most dangerous is not in the Channel where they are usually on a higher state of alert. Usually have a dedicated extra lookout posted. Its when they get further out and go down to just the OOW and Auto on watch and drop their guard.

Even if you do something dumb, they will be paying attention, they will curse and blind and go round you.

You don't need to worry so much. Just drive defensively. If you are concerned about a ships action. Turn away from it.
 
I've been trying to see what else is out there.

The good news is that all other COLREGs debates seem to be afflicted with five year olds logging in to say "I just keep out of the way" or "I just avoid collisions" as though they didn't realise that was what the debate was about in the first place. So it is not just a YBW problem.

I didn't find anything that mentioned a case about a small yacht impeding in a TSS. There's definitely (Dutch) case law on a sail training vessel not using its auxiliary engine to cross at right angles when it couldn't sail that course.

For a mere £25 you can buy a text book on Rule 10. https://www.marinesocietyshop.org/products/1583-rule-10-tss.aspx

There's even a book that has been uploaded to the web. http://navruleshandbook.com/Rule10.html It supports the view that not impeding means not allowing a risk of collision to develop in the first place (although how anyone expected a small yacht to be able to work that out sufficiently far in advance before AIS is another mystery).

I should point out that this book appears to have been the loser in a competition to become the USNs standard book on the ColRegs. I don't know what the winner said on the subject.
 
Tomahawk said:
Whilst I agree it may involve altering course to port if the SoV is on your Stb...
I was told make a course alteration that is bloody obvious... like going round in circles..
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Generally speaking an obvious or bold alteration of course. Large enough to be readily apparent Is recommended to be about 60 degrees or more. In other words to be bloody obvious.:)

Round turns may be good in some circumstances. Particularly when taking action as per rule 17. Stand on vessel. The disadvantages being it can be disorienting and it can be confusing to another vessel.
 
Uricanejack said:
Setting across a traffic lane with the expectation the ship several miles away will alter a have no problem altering few degrees and in fact will is not a wise move. It is not only not wise its a violation of rule 10.

All sorts of you are going to disagree with me saying this:) .
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Yes - because it is plain and simply wrong - the doc quoted above stated explicitly that the vessel in the TSS is give way, and also warned that vessels in the TSS may
Vessels in either traffic lane may frequently have to give way to ferries and other
crossing vessels in order to comply with the Steering and Sailing Rules (Rules 4 – 19)
of the COLREGs
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If your interpretation were correct then there would be no circumstances on which the vessel in the lane had to give way, let alone it being frequent.
 
Tomahawk said:
Whilst I agree it may involve altering course to port if the SoV is on your Stb...
I was told make a course alteration that is bloody obvious... like going round in circles..
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I'm not sure 720's exonerate anyone under colregs.
It's something I'd only do to loiter outside a channel prior to crossing close behind something.
The thing to remember is to consider the next few ships as well as the nearest.
I consider that loitering and being unpredictable is most likely to be an impediment to the ships trying to give way to you or assess whether they need to.
 
Uricanejack said:
Generally speaking an obvious or bold alteration of course. Large enough to be readily apparent Is recommended to be about 60 degrees or more. In other words to be bloody obvious.:)

Round turns may be good in some circumstances. Particularly when taking action as per rule 17. Stand on vessel. The disadvantages being it can be disorienting and it can be confusing to another vessel.
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I did a 180 degree course correction a couple of years ago at 3.00 in the morning in the middle of the Adriatic when I encountered a huge fishing/processing vessel which was stationary dead ahead with no AIS switched on. I decided that he might have nets out the back and might have stopped to haul them in so I decided it was safer to cross in front.

Big mistake! Just as I was closing on him about 100 metres away he applied full power ahead and aimed some kind of arc spotlight directly at me which was like the sun coming up. I applied full power and turned tail 180 and waited a few minutes until he was gone to regain my composure. :o

Richard
 
Uricanejack said:
Setting across a traffic lane with the expectation the ship several miles away will alter a have no problem altering few degrees and in fact will is not a wise move. It is not only not wise its a violation of rule 10.
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No it isn't. Even assuming you ARE talking about a TSS here (rather than just a notional extension of one), and presuming you are specifically referring to 10 j, then "shall not impede" does not mean "give way", but instead it is clearly stated in 8 f what this means.

"several miles" is most definitely sufficient sea-room for the safe passage of the other vessel

Uricanejack said:
All sorts of you are going to disagree with me saying this:)
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I agree with you on that point.
 
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