bedouin
Well-Known Member
That is a very interesting document - I think it is the first time I have seen an authoritative statement that supports my view - i.e. that usually the fact it is a TSS makes no difference to the actions you should take
Crossing Shipping Lanes
- Thread starter paulburn
- Start date
That is a very interesting document - I think it is the first time I have seen an authoritative statement that supports my view - i.e. that usually the fact it is a TSS makes no difference to the actions you should take
shaunksb
Well-Known Member
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
It's easier to not crash in a TSS than it is to talk about it here. 
RichardS
N/A
I suspect that the issue with this course of action is that you are heading against the flow of the TSS which I think is specifically not recommended.
Whether that trumps turning with the flow of the TSS and therefore spending more time overall in the TSS I know not .... but someone else will.
This assumes that simply slowing down or speeding up without any change in direction are not viable options in the particular circumstances.
Richard
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
Impede. or the requirement not to impede is probably the most difficult concept in the whole of the collision regulations. It is often misunderstood. So you are not alone.
Rules 9(b), (c) and (d), lO(i) and (i) and 18(d). The following item of Guidance was approved in 1982 by the Maritime Safety Committee; ‘When a vessel is required not to impede the passage of another vessel, such a vessel shall so far as practicable navigate in such a way as to avoid the development of risk of collision. If, however, a situation has developed so as to involve risk of collision, the relevant Steering and Sailing Rules shall be complied with.’
The Maritime safety Committee is the IMO. Don't get to hung up on the above. This is the original guidance and interpretation of what do not impede meant. As you can see the safe passage is not included. Its impede the passage.
This has always been a contentious issue. When does the obligation to not impede start to apply and when does it end and the normal rules take over.
The rules as written in 1982. It could be argued or interpreted the obligation to not impede ended when risk of collision existed and the normal rules took over. This was not the intent of the rules so as a result of problems ie collisions or near misses involving this interpretation.
The rules changed in 1987 by adding section F to Rule 8.
"Steering and Sailing Rules shall be complied with.’ The above Guidance is now superseded by the new Rule 8(f) which establishes clearly that the requirements of ‘not to impede’ are complementary to other requirements of the Steering and Sailing Rules. The requirement not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel does not apply only to vessels in sight of each other which are approaching in such a way that risk of collision is likely to develop. The requirements of Rule 8(f) together with Rules 9(b), (c) and (d), and lO(i) and (i) apply in both clear and restricted visibility. For instance, a sailing vessel or small power-driven vessel which becomes aware of the approach of a large power-driven vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel should take early action to allow safe passage whether or not the other vessel is in sight. When vessels are in sight of each other and are approaching in such a way that risk of collision seems likely to develop the Rules of Part B Section I1 become applicable. In such circumstances a vessel which is required not to impede the passage of another vessel is not relieved of that obligation if the other vessel will become the give-way vessel when risk of collision exists. For instance, when a power-driven vessel and a sailing vessel are approaching each other the power-driven vessel is required by Rule 18(a) to keep out of the way when risk of collision begins to apply, although she may be proceeding along a narrow channel or traffic lane, but this does not relieve the sailing vessel of the obligation to take early action to allow sufficient sea room"
Don't confuse yourself further by focusing on the next phrase "safe passage". Definitely don't invent a new one "unsafe passage". The difficulty being you are not in the position of being able to determine what is or is not "safe" for another vessel.
It might be easier or more obvious in a narrow channel where the large vessel with the deep draught would go aground if it altered course and left the channel. Its less clear in open water which happens to be a traffic lane. The Vessel will clearly not go aground if it has to alter course. If by altering it leaves the lane? The hazard in this circumstance is the density of traffic . The potential unsafe condition restricting its passage is other traffic. And the knock on effect.
The road traffic analogy the pile up starting with one vehicles action affecting a lot of others. Might be a bit over the top. It is over the top.
The problem with concluding the ship altered co and survived so it was safe. Is you don't know why he altered course. 5 degrees 50 degrees or 100 degrees. Without specific context it can't be answered.
The rules are generic and general they do not cover specific situations. They do not precisely defining what is and is not safe.
It is all left to the individual mariner to determine for himself what a reasonable response to a given set of circumstances are at a given time using the rules as guidance. If it goes wrong he or she may find there reasoning and actions judged afterwards.
As you can see from the advice given so far we have a lot of differing interpretations and ways of dealing with these situation. Some has been good, some not so good, some downright dangerous.
The TSS was a concept invented by collaboration between the British and the French. To simplify traffic in the Channel and improve the safety of navigation for all vessels in the channel and the safety of their coasts. It's an Anglo French idea. The British and French were the driving force at the IMO to give priority to the traffic using the TSS over the vessels required not to impede.
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classic jenny
Active Member
Makes me laught to myself how long these col regs posts go on for. Simple law of self preservation should come into effect. If a big Comercial ship is anywhere near get out the bleeding way simple.
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
I couldn't agree more. How did we get by? Easy HBC, A pair Binos and common sense otherwise defined as the practice of Good Seamen.
Interpretation? How I intemperate compared to how you intemperate a particular situation will often be different. The rules allow for this.
My happiness and yours are likely different. So what? As long as it works out ok. The context of the situation determines if our actions were reasonable or not. In most cases your happiness would not be unreasonable and I suspect you probably have the understanding to determine when it would be unreasonable.
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
I was surprised by your statement so having not read the document I read it. If your view is. that usually the fact it is a TSS makes no difference to the actions you should take[/QUOTE]
You have miss read the document. It is making it very clear a TSS makes a difference. In Particular the one at Dover. And making a not very subtle threat about prosecution if your actions are reported. It also suggests there are getting a bit miffed by ships passing close to their light floats. And I suspect some ships have. In the past hit and run their light floats.
RichardS
N/A
The problem with that approach is that you are motoring along and you see a large commercial ship closing on a converging course on your port beam ...... you don't want to risk crossing in front of it and you don't want to turn onto a course which is completely different to your destination so you turn to port 45 degrees to pass behind the ship.
Unfortunately the commercial ship has now turned to starboard 45 degrees to pass behind you ..... and you are now heading directly for each other.
Your move next. :ambivalence:
Richard
You are very unlikely to encounter a ship making such a swerve in a channel shipping lane because the maneuver would upset the 5 ships following behind.
In practice the big boys spot the minnows at 5 to 10 miles out and tweak their course if necessary. The AIS equipped minnows identify a close encounter at 5 miles and take some minor corrective action between 5 or 2 miles and everything is hunkydory. The system falls apart when some prat of an amateur sailor thinks he knows the COLREGs better than all the pro mariners and starts behaving abnormally.
I have read 1000's of COLREG posts in this forum over 15 years and all these online disputes confirm that not a single sailor in the English Channel has a comprehensive sound knowledge of the COLREG.
It is interesting to note that the two forum characters known for their association with RYA training are keeping a non committal low profile in this thread, probably because they know that COLREG debates are a futile trivial pursuit that have a negative effect on marine safety.
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GHA
Well-Known Member
Or learn and understand the irpcs, it covers everything. And when the rules come into play others aren't confused by your actions.
Simple.
RichardS
N/A
I would have thought that it was clear from my scenario description that I'm not referring to a TSS as I've assumed the same applies to Classic Jenny's post.
Richard
Yes indeed it was clear and that is why I said "shipping lane" and not TSS. Perhaps you have been away in the Med too long and have forgotten that Channel charts indicate shipping lanes outside TSS zones and AIS tracks reinforce this impression. Also note that in my earlier post I advised that shipping traffic behaviour does not alter much inside or just outside TSS zones.I would have thought that it was clear from my scenario description that I'm not referring to a TSS as I've assumed the same applies to Classic Jenny's post.
These YBW obsessive debates about COLREGs and TSS zones could lead less experienced skippers into believing there are distinct zones of navigational behaviour.
paulburn
Well-Known Member
Quick question..
I think that it's possible for ships to turn off receiving class B AIS data to declutter the screen.
Is it possible that they would be travellling along shipping lanes and more specifically TSS, with class B switched off? Or are there rules that oblige them to have it switched on?
I think that it's possible for ships to turn off receiving class B AIS data to declutter the screen.
Is it possible that they would be travellling along shipping lanes and more specifically TSS, with class B switched off? Or are there rules that oblige them to have it switched on?
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
I don't know why you guys are taking shots at Jenny.
All she said or implied is she would keep out of the way. There is no reason to assume from what she said. She would not keep out of the way in accordance with the practice of good seamen.
Her answer to the original question is in compliance with the collision regs.
All she said or implied is she would keep out of the way. There is no reason to assume from what she said. She would not keep out of the way in accordance with the practice of good seamen.
Her answer to the original question is in compliance with the collision regs.
KINGFISHER 9
Well-Known Member
Rules? ... if you've got 100000 tons coming in your direction at 20 knots then to hell with the rules! ... and read post #41.
RichardS
N/A
That's a very generous interpretation of Jenny's post.
She needs to come back and tell us whether or not she meant she she always adopts the role of give way vessel when close to commercial shipping.
Richard
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
The regulations require commercial vessels to have a transponder. Have it turned on and to update it with current information.
How the information they receive from other vessels. Is displayed. Is up to the OOW. The OOW may have to comply with some specific Masters Orders or Company Policy.
I would be surprised if class B were disabled mid channel. or Offshore. Coming into South Hampton they might due to shear no of Class B still tied to the dock overwhelming their system.
But who Knows what another individual may decide is appropriate.
Some times turning class B back on may get forgotten.
The standard of equipment on a ships bridge may vary widely. A lot of particularly the older slower bulker types. Will be minimum compliance. A cruise Ship or Liner may have state of the art at time of build. Often older Cruise Ships or Ferries will be updated.
The same goes for crew and particularly "The Watch" with regards to minimum compliance and state of the art. They could be anywhere in between.
A lot of people here put a lot more faith in them than I would.
RichardS
N/A
Snap! For this purposes of this debate, I'm also using the terms TSS and Shipping Lane interchangeably.
Richard