Crossing Shipping Lanes

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paulburn

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I am rather confused by Colregs !

If I am crossing a shipping lanes (TSS) in a small sailing boat (heading perpendicular, in the required manner), am I always the give-way boat (as according to rule 10j), or the give way boat only if big boat to my starboard side (rule 15), or never the give way boat (rule 18) ?!!

I could see that any of the three might be invoked, depending upon particular interpretation/circumstances and which rule trumps which other rule !

Grateful for clarification :)

many thanks Paul
 
paulburn said:
I am rather confused by Colregs !

If I am crossing a shipping lanes (TSS) in a small sailing boat (heading perpendicular, in the required manner), am I always the give-way boat (as according to rule 10j), or the give way boat only if big boat to my starboard side (rule 15), or never the give way boat (rule 18) ?!!

I could see that any of the three might be invoked, depending upon particular interpretation/circumstances and which rule trumps which other rule !

Grateful for clarification :)

many thanks Paul
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If you sail 15 is out.
First sentence in rule 18 says?
Except where Rule 9, Rule 10, and Rule 13 otherwise require:
Click to expand...
so rule 10 win over 18
 
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paulburn said:
I am rather confused by Colregs !

If I am crossing a shipping lanes (TSS) in a small sailing boat (heading perpendicular, in the required manner), am I always the give-way boat (as according to rule 10j), or the give way boat only if big boat to my starboard side (rule 15), or never the give way boat (rule 18) ?!!

I could see that any of the three might be invoked, depending upon particular interpretation/circumstances and which rule trumps which other rule !

Grateful for clarification :)

many thanks Paul
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It's pretty clear. Rule 10 is the one to follow i.e SHALL NOT impede etc..
 
Thanks..that's what the RNLI woman at the Boat Show told me too..

But my confusion lies in

1) first part of 10 states that it doesn't trump other rules - implying that other rules take precendence


2) it's not clear to me that being the stand on vessel is necessarily impeding the safe passage of another vessel- they are rather different things- ie a big ship could give way by altering course by a couple of degrees in a TSS without having its safe passage compromised.

I'm probably overthinking this!
 
This has exercised my mind for a while...a bit like crossing a six lane highway on your hands and knees.

I am concerned about my ability to pick a path at 5 knots at 90' to lines of bulk carriers doing 20 knots

Obviously AIS and radar make it easier, but this forum is full of old salts who look down their noses at over reliance on instruments

So - as I plan my first channel crossing, any tips? Just wait until there is a huge gap?
 
paulburn said:
Thanks..that's what the RNLI woman at the Boat Show told me too..

But my confusion lies in

1) first part of 10 states that it doesn't trump other rules - implying that other rules take precendence


2) it's not clear to me that being the stand on vessel is necessarily impeding the safe passage of another vessel- they are rather different things- ie a big ship could give way by altering course by a couple of degrees in a TSS without having its safe passage compromised.

I'm probably overthinking this!
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What about rule 18, see my previous post :)
 
Where are you crossing? Do not confuse TSS with shipping lanes. If you are crossing from the Solent or further West you probably won't encounter a TSS.
 
The answer is it depends. Not a lot of help ehh?

It is at first reading complicated or confusing situation,
Rules 10 applies so does rule 18. and if you put the motor on so does rule 15.

As a sailing vessel you are always the stand on vessel when risk of collision exists with a power driven vessel.

Rule 10 adds a couple of further complications. First you should cross at as near to 90 degrees as practical to the general direction of flow. Not your question so I won't get into that.

And the requirement to not impede the passage of a power driven vessel using the TSS.

What the heck does not impede mean?

Do Not Impede. Means do not get in the way in the first place.
If you do get in the way and risk of collision exists normal rules still apply and you are still a stand on vessel . If you do impede the vessel. it is still required to give way as per rule 18. Even so the requirement not to impede still exists.

It is not the same as must give way. Even so. To all intense and purpose if you are on a Sailing Vessel, a vessel of less than 20m in length or Fishing vessel engaged in fishing It's is best to treat it as if you were give way and do it early.
However once the risk of collision exists the stand on give way vessels are still the same as at any other time. Be aware. The give way vessel must give way if risk of collision exists and may alter course towards you to go around your stern.

Exactly when is a vessel is impeded ?
If it has to make a significant alteration of course or speed. Again it's not a precise definition.

Even if you have left it to this stage where risk of collision exists and you are in close quarters you are still required not to impede.

So altering course to going astern of a vessel using the TSS lane. Or against the direction of flow of traffic is not a good idea. It may alter course at the same time to go astern of you. which could be dangerous to you.
Reduce speed or alter to go with the traffic until its passed and clear, And the next one comes along.

If you are under power.

Under this circumstance rule 10 for TSS applies along with rule 15 crossing situation.

So it depends as per rule 15 you are give way to vessels crossing from your starboard side and stand on for vessels crossing from your port side.
So if you cross an entire TSS you will be give way to all the vessels transiting the TSS in one lane and stand on to all the vessels transiting the TSS in other opposite lane.
As a small vessel less than 20m in length the same shall not impede applies.

If you do impede a vessel using the TSS and risk of collision exists the normal rules still apply so you could be ether stand on or give way. The Vessel using the TSS. Should still give way.
Even so you are still required not to impede.

Again if in this situation an alteration towards a give way vessel to go astern of it would not be a good idea. Alter course away from it parallel to its course and the traffic flow until it passes. and or reduce speed.

repeat with the next one.

To summarise. Just give way early. Time your crossing to not get in the way. Treat it as if you are always give way but do not alter towards a give way vessel unless you do it early (before you enter the Lane) make it obvious. to other vessels.

Once you are in the Lane and crossing, If risk of collision exists, Alter away from the vessel using the Lane to a parallel course. or slow down or stop. Be aware the vessel using the TSS which is a give way vessel may alter to go astern of you.

Clear as Mud?
 
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Beyondhelp said:
If I may take this on a tangent slightly, just how busy are these lanes really? I mean if you sat there watching for say an hour, how many would pass?
Click to expand...

I've been through once on a sailing boat and quite few times on a ferry, to North of CI

I have seen it deserted, and also nose to tail, two abreast in places
 
Uricanejack said:
The answer is it depends. Not a lot of help ehh?

It is at first reading complicated or confusing situation,

The first it depends what you mean by a small fishing vessel. Is it a type of small commercial fishing vessel which is restricted in its ability to comply with the rules due to its gear. I will assume for this question it is.
Next are you actually engaged in fishing at the time when you are crossing the TSS. Or are you on the way to go fishing. Or coming home from fishing.
If you are a small vessel engaged in fishing as defined by rule 3. This would mean actively fishing.
Then you are not the giveaway vessel as per rule 18.
Rule 10 has a complex requirement if you are crossing a TSS while engaged in fishing. Even though you are a stand on vessel you must not impede the passage of a vessel using the TSS Lane.
Which means you should not get in the way in the first place. If you do impede the vessel it is still required to give way as per rule 18. The requirement not to impede still exists. So altering course to going astern of a vessel using the TSS lane. Or against the direction of flow of traffic is not a good idea.
reduce speed or alter to go with the traffic until its passed and clear, And the next one comes along.
If you are not actually actively engaged in fishing you are a fishing boat but not as defined by rule 3 and not covered by rule 18 at the time. You are a power driven vessel which happens to be a fishing vessel.
Under this circumstance rule 10 for TSS applies along with rule 15 crossing situation.
So it depends as per rule 15 you are give way to vessels crossing from your starboard side and stand on for vessels crossing from your port side.
So if you cross an entire TSS you will be give way to all the vessels transiting the TSS in one lane and stand on to all the vessels transiting the TSS in other opposite lane.
As a small vessel less than 20m in length the same shall not impede applies. which means don't get in the way in the first place. If you do impede a vessel using the TSS and risk of collision exists the normal rules still apply so you could be ether stand on or give way. The Vessel using the TSS. Should still give way. Even so you are still required not to impede.
Again if in this situation an alteration towards a give way vessel to go astern of it would not be a good idea. Alter course away from it parallel to its course and the traffic flow until it passes. and or reduce speed.
repeat with the next one.

The concept of not impede is a strange one. its not quite the same as must give way. But to all intense and purpose if you are on a Fishing vessel engaged in fishing a sailing vessel or a vessel of less than 20m. However once the risk of collision exists the stand on give way vessels are still the same as at any other time.
Just give way early. Time your crossing to not get in the way. treat it as if you are always give way but do not alter towards a give way vessel unless you do it early (before you enter the Lane) make it obvious.
Once you are in the Lane and crossing, If risk of collision exists, Alter away from the vessel using the Lane to a parallel course. or slow down or stop. Be aware the vessel using the TSS if its a give way vessel may alter to go astern of you.

Exactly when is a vessel is impeded ? If it has to make a significant alteration of course or speed. Again its not a precise definition.
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OP wrote small sailing boat....
 
In a TSS rule 10 says do not impede. That doesn't mean that if the other vessel is the give way he ceases to be the give way vessel, but rather it means that you should try to avoid getting into a situation where you make the give way vessel give way. If you fail at that and it gets to the point where there's a risk of collision then the give way vessel still has the duty to give way.

If you have an AIS reciever it should be possible to determine how close you're going to get to each ship at quite a distance. It's much harder to work out with a hand-bearing compass until you're much closer.

And if the TSS is short enough you can avoid rule 10 by avoiding the TSS.
 
Interesting- I interpreted the key in the rule 10j as 'safe' rather than 'impede' - i.e. I thought they are saying that you mus
 
My understanding is as follows:

Rule 18 says that if a collision situation develops, you must stand on (until it's clear that the ship isn't taking action) and the ship must keep clear of you. However, Rule 10 says that you must not impede the ship, which I tend to think means ensuring that a collision situation doesn't arise in the first place. If you fail in this, Rule 18 applies.

A couple of other points, though:

Is causing a ship to make one course alteration of say 5º really "impeding" it, assuming this doesn't cause it to conflict with any other traffic? Arguably not, but I don't know what the case law says.

Ships like to set up their passing situations many miles out, far enough that a yachtsman with binos cannot yet predict the CPA situation with any accuracy, and certainly cannot detect a course change of a few degrees. Hence if you want to (as I've heard a professional watchkeeper quoted) "participate meaningfully in traffic rather than being mere flotsam" you really need either AIS or skilled operation of radar.

Pete
 
paulburn said:
Referring specifically to TSS (ie whilst crossing from Salcombe to Channel Islands)
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If you are sailing and not impeding the big ship (there is plenty of width in the TSS for a large ship to alter course slightly to avoid a small sailing yacht) you are the stand on vessel. If you keep a steady course and speed you will find they make a small alteration of course and pass you about a mile ahead or astern.

____________________
 
Interesting- I interpreted the key word of 10j as 'safe' rather than 'impede' - and making a big ship give way, however inconvenient, may not in itself be unsafe.

I wonder if they might have phrased 10j along the simple lines of 'vessels crossing the TSS should give way to those travelling along it', if that's the sense they intended ?
 
paulburn said:
I wonder if they might have phrased 10j along the simple lines of 'vessels crossing the TSS should give way to those travelling along it', if that's the sense they intended ?
Click to expand...

I suspect there's an element of that (note it is just <20m or sailing), but they couldn't really override the normal give way rules as they're based on the ability to manouvre out of the way.
 
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