simonfraser
Well-Known Member
I like the perceived extra retaining strength and security of the external nut and split pin.
Loctite the nut onto the pin.
But which is more secure ?
Loctite the nut onto the pin.
But which is more secure ?
Crosby shackles pin in body or external nut ?
- Thread starter simonfraser
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D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
Four part shackles are typically used these days in certain industries as been the safest types to use and recommended in reliable securing, see page 60 http://dropsonline.org/assets/documents/ReliableSecuringREV04.pdf, typically for items at height where access to inspect may be difficult. However, a two part shackle with Loctite will be very secure and if you can inspect it easily, then any signs of backing out would be obvious.
What is the application?
What is the application?
jon and michie
Well-Known Member
On a 4 part shackle there is a hole on the pin so once you have placed the nut onto it the hole is for an R clip or split pin for security
jon and michie
Well-Known Member
You could on a 2 part shackle use a tie wrap through the hole in the pin and around the body of the shackle which would prevent the pin from unscrewing out
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
R clips should not be used on 4 part shackles, only split pins. R clips can be easily knocked out on moving rigging. Plenty of folks use R clips because they are convenient, but that is considered dangerous in lifting and hoisting applications. Use an R clip to secure water and air lines unions, not 4 part shackles.
What's the shackle actually for?
jon and michie
Well-Known Member
Yes you are correct about the r clip and I have seen people use them offshore for moving loads from platform to work boat.
There is a clip like a safety pin which can be used.
However i suggested an r clip as i dont know what the o.p's intention is
Jo
There is a clip like a safety pin which can be used.
However i suggested an r clip as i dont know what the o.p's intention is
Jo
doug748
Well-Known Member
I think it depends but for anchoring and mooring:
For the anchor I always choose a shackle where the pin protrudes a little way through the body so I can peen it over with an engineers hammer. Of course this is difficult to remove and probably has to be sawn off when the time comes.
The above is almost impossible on a mooring buoy so in that case I find it best to, as you suggest, get the jobbie with and external nut and then split pin it. This was met with derision by my mooring contractor but I have never lost a split pin even on a very lively mooring.
I have seen cable ties, monel wire, thick galvanized wire and flat stainless strap ties all lost through violent motion.
For the anchor I always choose a shackle where the pin protrudes a little way through the body so I can peen it over with an engineers hammer. Of course this is difficult to remove and probably has to be sawn off when the time comes.
The above is almost impossible on a mooring buoy so in that case I find it best to, as you suggest, get the jobbie with and external nut and then split pin it. This was met with derision by my mooring contractor but I have never lost a split pin even on a very lively mooring.
I have seen cable ties, monel wire, thick galvanized wire and flat stainless strap ties all lost through violent motion.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Loctite will be perfectly secure for most if not all leisure marine applications. Most common Loctites will set under water, they are anaerobic. If you choose a Loctite that requires heat to free up - they are devil to break/unscrew, you do need the heat. Volvo adhesive, blue, may be a rebadged Loctite but is as good as, some/many Loctite's blue series - and will be available from any Volvo dealer. The common issue with 4 part clevis pins are the length of the pin which can catch the end of the bow roller (in the normal chain to anchor configuration). 'R' pins are perfectly safe, if you bend the end of the pin (the vertical of the 'R') to ensure it cannot be pulled out - but a split pin is easier. The other issue with 4 part pins is that you need a spanner (of the right size) - removal of a 2 part pin is easier as most people will carry a shackle key.
I cannot think of a leisure marine application that would demand a 4 part clevis pin, but am very willing to learn.
Jonathan
I cannot think of a leisure marine application that would demand a 4 part clevis pin, but am very willing to learn.
Jonathan
simonfraser
Well-Known Member
Tnx guys, it’s to connect chain to anchor.
Don’t care how tough it is to take apart, just want max peace of mind.
By the sounds of it loctite pin into nut and split pin is best.
Changing my anchor so just revisiting the connection, no i am not saying
Don’t care how tough it is to take apart, just want max peace of mind.
By the sounds of it loctite pin into nut and split pin is best.
Changing my anchor so just revisiting the connection, no i am not saying
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Then you need to check that the shackle with 'extra' width pin runs through the opening (sea side) of your bow roller. The pin with its normal 'lug' on the pin and the nut will be wider than many bow rollers and may catch on the vertical sides of the bow roller as you retrieve. Most windlass are very fast and they can seriously whack a bow roller.
Many people complain about the lug at the end of the pin, so a nut at the other end only doubles chances of whacking your bow roller. One solution (or a common one) is to cut the lug off, maybe leaving the vestige of the lug or cutting flush and adding a slot for a big screw driver. You can find, with some difficulty, recessed ahead (alan key type) shackle pins.
But some bow rollers are more generous and whacking the bow roller is not an issue.
I might suggest taking any old shackle, try a red Loctite (I think red Loctites need heat to release) - and see how secure that is. I was a bit generous with some red Loctite and even with a big shifter I could not move the pin - but I have a little blow torch. Even if you try blue Loctite or the equivalent Volvo product you do need to apply a bit of grunt to release (and they do set underwater). I know all this because I tried it and I think Vyv ha detail of test he did on his website If you are till unsure, mouse the pin (as well).
https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_64/features/Adhesives-Test_11972-1.html
You need to be looking at the Crosby G209a bow shackle - to make sure you look at the right 'quality' the 3/8th" shackle would have a WLL of 2t. I think Knox Anchor might be stocking them now.
Jonathan
edit
I have never tested bolted shackles, here are some thoughts on 'conventional' shackles
https://www.practical-sailor.com/is...Shackles-The-15-Insurance-Policy_11773-1.html
close edit
Many people complain about the lug at the end of the pin, so a nut at the other end only doubles chances of whacking your bow roller. One solution (or a common one) is to cut the lug off, maybe leaving the vestige of the lug or cutting flush and adding a slot for a big screw driver. You can find, with some difficulty, recessed ahead (alan key type) shackle pins.
But some bow rollers are more generous and whacking the bow roller is not an issue.
I might suggest taking any old shackle, try a red Loctite (I think red Loctites need heat to release) - and see how secure that is. I was a bit generous with some red Loctite and even with a big shifter I could not move the pin - but I have a little blow torch. Even if you try blue Loctite or the equivalent Volvo product you do need to apply a bit of grunt to release (and they do set underwater). I know all this because I tried it and I think Vyv ha detail of test he did on his website If you are till unsure, mouse the pin (as well).
https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_64/features/Adhesives-Test_11972-1.html
You need to be looking at the Crosby G209a bow shackle - to make sure you look at the right 'quality' the 3/8th" shackle would have a WLL of 2t. I think Knox Anchor might be stocking them now.
Jonathan
edit
I have never tested bolted shackles, here are some thoughts on 'conventional' shackles
https://www.practical-sailor.com/is...Shackles-The-15-Insurance-Policy_11773-1.html
close edit
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Boathook
Well-Known Member
In the past I have used the green? rated shackles tightened up with a spanner and then wired up. Never had an issue with it coming undone. Wichard do a s/s shackle with a counter sunk head. There is more on Vyv Cox website about this.Tnx guys, it’s to connect chain to anchor.
Don’t care how tough it is to take apart, just want max peace of mind.
By the sounds of it loctite pin into nut and split pin is best.
Changing my anchor so just revisiting the connection, no i am not saying
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Green Pin - from Van Beest in Holland (and France). Highly reputable shackles but not as strong as Crosby's G209a, about half the strength (so, for a 3/8th" shackle: 1t WLL for a Green Pin vs 2t WLL for a Crosby). Noting that if shackles are side loaded the WLL is halved. If however you buy larger shackles (bigger than most will need for an anchor on this forum) - they are of the same quality as Crosby (Van Beest only make the 'better' quality shackles defined as Grade B in larger sizes). If you can guarantee straight line loading - an excellent shackle (and probably more widely distributed in the UK than Crosby)
Do check that the clevis pin fits your chain, that the bow of the shackle will fit the anchor - and that the bow will move freely in the slot in the anchor. You might need to widen the link to accept the Crosby shackle pin, a drift was suggested by NormanS in a previous thread (and Vyv suggests squeezing in a vice).
From memory - the smallest Grade B, G209a, shackle that Crosby sell is a 3/8th".
Crosby and Van Beest shackle are rated, as Boathook says. Most shackles you see in hardware stores look the same as Crosby or Van Beest - just check the embossing, Crosby's are well marked with Crosby (I've never actually seen a genuine Green Pin (but have seen copies). There are now many shackle makers in China, they are cheap and probably excellent value to chain up a larger mastiff. China recognises quality and many Chinese shackle makers make shackles with Green Pins or called 209 quality.
Jonathan
Do check that the clevis pin fits your chain, that the bow of the shackle will fit the anchor - and that the bow will move freely in the slot in the anchor. You might need to widen the link to accept the Crosby shackle pin, a drift was suggested by NormanS in a previous thread (and Vyv suggests squeezing in a vice).
From memory - the smallest Grade B, G209a, shackle that Crosby sell is a 3/8th".
Crosby and Van Beest shackle are rated, as Boathook says. Most shackles you see in hardware stores look the same as Crosby or Van Beest - just check the embossing, Crosby's are well marked with Crosby (I've never actually seen a genuine Green Pin (but have seen copies). There are now many shackle makers in China, they are cheap and probably excellent value to chain up a larger mastiff. China recognises quality and many Chinese shackle makers make shackles with Green Pins or called 209 quality.
Jonathan
simonfraser
Well-Known Member
Tnx all.
noelex
Well-Known Member
Bolted bow shackles do have some appeal for attaching the chain to the anchor.
They are in theory stronger with side loading. The nut and split pin is more secure than Loctite alone, and easier to remove quickly or even underwater.
The biggest drawback of a traditional anchor shackle is the large head of the shackle pin. This projection can catch, which is not ideal when the anchor winch can generate such large forces. Like many, I cut off the head of my shackle pins to reduce this risk. If you drill a small hole the shackle can still be moused (which I think is important). This is not possible with bolted bow shackles, however, in the unmodified state the bolted bow shackle itself is little more streamlined.
The Van Beest bolted bow super shackles would be great choice for anchoring, but unfortunately the minimium size is 13.5mm so it is a little big for most boats.
Photo shows making the modified shackle pin that can still be moused. The next step is to file the edges smooth and then I add a little nail polish to the end for some corrosion protection.
They are in theory stronger with side loading. The nut and split pin is more secure than Loctite alone, and easier to remove quickly or even underwater.
The biggest drawback of a traditional anchor shackle is the large head of the shackle pin. This projection can catch, which is not ideal when the anchor winch can generate such large forces. Like many, I cut off the head of my shackle pins to reduce this risk. If you drill a small hole the shackle can still be moused (which I think is important). This is not possible with bolted bow shackles, however, in the unmodified state the bolted bow shackle itself is little more streamlined.
The Van Beest bolted bow super shackles would be great choice for anchoring, but unfortunately the minimium size is 13.5mm so it is a little big for most boats.
Photo shows making the modified shackle pin that can still be moused. The next step is to file the edges smooth and then I add a little nail polish to the end for some corrosion protection.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Any evidence to ANY of this.
Why in theory are they stronger?
If the shackle pin is moused and Loctite applied why is a pinned clevis pin with nut more secure?
Have you ever tried to remove a cotter pin underwater and then unbolted a nut?
Jonathan
noelex
Well-Known Member
If you are purchasing Crosby shackles, there have been reports of some counterfeit copies. This bulletin outlines how to tell the difference:
https://insidetowers.com/counterfeit-crosby-shackles-safety-alert/
https://insidetowers.com/counterfeit-crosby-shackles-safety-alert/
Neeves
Well-Known Member
In common with Noelex' usual string outrageous and dangerous statements Noelex has no answer to my queries in Post 16. He is unable and cannot support his claims, Post 15, and we can therefore as usual ignore his guesses.
Making claims and guesses on safety equipment is simply dangerous.
Jonathan
edit
In terms of strength
I have tested around 30 3/8th" G80 bow shackles. Testing has all been conducted at a NATA approved facility. Some have cut the mustard, others not. The only ones I would recommend are Crosby and Campbell. Good shackles show a minimum of distortion at failure (they appear to have very high yield strength). Disreputable shackles bend more easily and would be difficult to release (especially underwater) as the pin would undoubtedly lock. You would need to remove with bolt croppers or angle grinder (cutting a shackle off with a hack saw is a nightmare!). It is easier to cut the chain than the shackle (the chain is softer)
Failure, by controlled testing, consistently in a straight line pull is shear of the pin at the thread, inside the bow. This has logic as the thread 'thins' the pin. Make sure you seat the pin as tightly as possible.
Side loading results in the thread pulling out of the eye - basically the thread shears (and at 90 degree side loading strength is halved - which is why the strong recommendation to buy Grade B shackles). Unless the nut has more thread and is fatter (so more meat between the flat of the nut than is in the eye of a conventional shackle) the strength of the shackle with a nut compared with a 'more conventional' shackle will be the same. If the nut is thinner than the eye - the shackle would be weaker if side loaded.
If you lose the nut do not replace with any old nut - Crosby nor Van Beest do not specify nut quality but the bow and pin are a G80 quality. You can source G80, G100 and G120 nuts - but you are unlikely to have any in your tool kit and the thread may not fit anyway (though you can easily buy high tensile nuts (usually with bolts).
I have never, ever, heard of a Crosby nor Campbell shackles failing - but this lacks any statistical significance as I don't know how many are used to secure an anchor. I do hear of cheap and nasty, unbranded, shackles failing. Side loading is common (pin pulls out of threads) and I have heard of the bow snapping (for whatever reason).
I no longer hear of chain failure - but swivels and shackles fail in similar numbers.
As Noelex points out - copies of shackles are not unusual - buy your shackles from a reputable distributor. There are copies of Peerless blue pin G80 shackles in their Peerlift range, there are copies of Van Beest's Green Pin shackles (and I would have to assume possible copies of Campbell's G80 shackles, orange pin). Check the manufacturer's websites for details of how they mark them. Most have the manufacturer's name, batch numbers etc. Peerless, apparently, don't make their own shackles (and I don't know where they source them) but they did not register the name Peerlift in China - with inevitable consequences. The last batch of Peerlift shackles I tested, supplied by Peerless, failed to meet their own specification. Campbell is based in the US (part of Apex tools) I have never found a source outside America.
I would not recommend Titan shackles - Titan is a common brand name in lifting (I wonder why ) so brand name alone is not reassurance and I do not know of any of the Titan brands that are as good as Crosby nor Campbell Grade B shackles (ie a 3/8th" shackles has a WLL of 2t). A more common Grade A 3/8th"
shackle would have a WLL of 1t - side load a Grade A shackle and the strength is less than that of a matching G30 chain, by a long way, and it will probably distort more easily.
There are other suppliers of Grade B shackles, in small sizes, but I have never found a retail source, outside Asia. I have obviously never tested any.
Jonathan
Making claims and guesses on safety equipment is simply dangerous.
Jonathan
edit
In terms of strength
I have tested around 30 3/8th" G80 bow shackles. Testing has all been conducted at a NATA approved facility. Some have cut the mustard, others not. The only ones I would recommend are Crosby and Campbell. Good shackles show a minimum of distortion at failure (they appear to have very high yield strength). Disreputable shackles bend more easily and would be difficult to release (especially underwater) as the pin would undoubtedly lock. You would need to remove with bolt croppers or angle grinder (cutting a shackle off with a hack saw is a nightmare!). It is easier to cut the chain than the shackle (the chain is softer)
Failure, by controlled testing, consistently in a straight line pull is shear of the pin at the thread, inside the bow. This has logic as the thread 'thins' the pin. Make sure you seat the pin as tightly as possible.
Side loading results in the thread pulling out of the eye - basically the thread shears (and at 90 degree side loading strength is halved - which is why the strong recommendation to buy Grade B shackles). Unless the nut has more thread and is fatter (so more meat between the flat of the nut than is in the eye of a conventional shackle) the strength of the shackle with a nut compared with a 'more conventional' shackle will be the same. If the nut is thinner than the eye - the shackle would be weaker if side loaded.
If you lose the nut do not replace with any old nut - Crosby nor Van Beest do not specify nut quality but the bow and pin are a G80 quality. You can source G80, G100 and G120 nuts - but you are unlikely to have any in your tool kit and the thread may not fit anyway (though you can easily buy high tensile nuts (usually with bolts).
I have never, ever, heard of a Crosby nor Campbell shackles failing - but this lacks any statistical significance as I don't know how many are used to secure an anchor. I do hear of cheap and nasty, unbranded, shackles failing. Side loading is common (pin pulls out of threads) and I have heard of the bow snapping (for whatever reason).
I no longer hear of chain failure - but swivels and shackles fail in similar numbers.
As Noelex points out - copies of shackles are not unusual - buy your shackles from a reputable distributor. There are copies of Peerless blue pin G80 shackles in their Peerlift range, there are copies of Van Beest's Green Pin shackles (and I would have to assume possible copies of Campbell's G80 shackles, orange pin). Check the manufacturer's websites for details of how they mark them. Most have the manufacturer's name, batch numbers etc. Peerless, apparently, don't make their own shackles (and I don't know where they source them) but they did not register the name Peerlift in China - with inevitable consequences. The last batch of Peerlift shackles I tested, supplied by Peerless, failed to meet their own specification. Campbell is based in the US (part of Apex tools) I have never found a source outside America.
I would not recommend Titan shackles - Titan is a common brand name in lifting (I wonder why
) so brand name alone is not reassurance and I do not know of any of the Titan brands that are as good as Crosby nor Campbell Grade B shackles (ie a 3/8th" shackles has a WLL of 2t). A more common Grade A 3/8th" shackle would have a WLL of 1t - side load a Grade A shackle and the strength is less than that of a matching G30 chain, by a long way, and it will probably distort more easily.
There are other suppliers of Grade B shackles, in small sizes, but I have never found a retail source, outside Asia. I have obviously never tested any.
Jonathan
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simonfraser
Well-Known Member
tnx again.
yes side loads on shackles are to be avoided. slight thread drift:
i have one bigger shackle on the shaft connected to a smaller one for the chain.
the bigger one moves freely and is big enough to cope with side loads if they occurred.
the pin on the smaller one has washers on the keep the chain central on the pin.
yes side loads on shackles are to be avoided. slight thread drift:
i have one bigger shackle on the shaft connected to a smaller one for the chain.
the bigger one moves freely and is big enough to cope with side loads if they occurred.
the pin on the smaller one has washers on the keep the chain central on the pin.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
It is a problem and one that should be addressed by anchor makers, not the customer. But that does not yet happen -so we are left to sort it out.
One of the reasons that Peter Smith originally specified use of Bis 80 (a high tensile steel) for the shank of his anchors was the idea that thick beefy shafts, like that on the CQR, deter or hinder the anchors ability to set. Oil rig anchor makers, Bruce and Vryhof, have the same issues - and have thin shanks. Rocna had a thin shank, as did Delta and Bruce - in fact it is difficult to find beefy shanks on a modern anchor.
https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_38/features/Anchor-Rode-Report_11321-1.html
In the same way beefy chain, going up in size to enable 'better' use of catenary, or swivels and (I'm getting to my point) big shackles will also hinder the ability of the anchor to dive (and deeper diving engenders access to seabed with higher shear strength and thus more hold).
I did some tests - and thinner chain does engender deeper setting (as on most modern anchors the shackle and toe dive together and at roughly the same rate). If the shank end (with shackle) is burying - chain has to be dragged down - and thinner chain buries easier than beefy chain.
A bigger shackle is going to retard penetration (as I'm assuming the shackle has more surface area than the chain).
I might agree that a shackle might not make much difference. Ground tackle needs to be looked at as whole, not as little parts and it depends on what else you are using - as your 'big' shackle and slightly oversized chain is a different scenario to a big shackles and slightly undersized chain.
So I confess - to engender articulation we use 3/8th" shackles on our Fortress and alloy Spade and a 1/2" shackle on our alloy Excel (because the alloy Excel shank is lightly too beefy for the 3/8th" shackle). We have a steel Excel (the same size a the alloy version) which is collecting dust in my workshop and it accepts the 3/8th" shackle with ease. Like you - we opted for a bigger shackle (but are using an Omega link as the enlarged link at the end of our 6mm G80 chain).
I'll find a link to Omega link and edit later.
You are not alone!
Jonathan
http://www.vanbeest.com/getattachme...-3d01b0fa2bc1/chapter02_grade10_products.aspx
If you scroll down a few pages, to page 234, you will find the Omega links we use as enlarged links on our 'small' link chain and pair with our 3/8th" or 1/2" shackles. The Omega links are quite small, smaller than a 3/8th" shackle. We have them galvanised locally (and if you ask nicely you could find someone sympathetic in the UK). This range of hardware, 'Excel' is made by Van Beest, the Green Pin shackle people in their French factory. If you galvanise (or have it done for you) you will lose strength and we use G100 components. Sensibly have a few done at a time - and then as they wear - you will have spares.
close edit
One of the reasons that Peter Smith originally specified use of Bis 80 (a high tensile steel) for the shank of his anchors was the idea that thick beefy shafts, like that on the CQR, deter or hinder the anchors ability to set. Oil rig anchor makers, Bruce and Vryhof, have the same issues - and have thin shanks. Rocna had a thin shank, as did Delta and Bruce - in fact it is difficult to find beefy shanks on a modern anchor.
https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_38/features/Anchor-Rode-Report_11321-1.html
In the same way beefy chain, going up in size to enable 'better' use of catenary, or swivels and (I'm getting to my point) big shackles will also hinder the ability of the anchor to dive (and deeper diving engenders access to seabed with higher shear strength and thus more hold).
I did some tests - and thinner chain does engender deeper setting (as on most modern anchors the shackle and toe dive together and at roughly the same rate). If the shank end (with shackle) is burying - chain has to be dragged down - and thinner chain buries easier than beefy chain.
A bigger shackle is going to retard penetration (as I'm assuming the shackle has more surface area than the chain).
I might agree that a shackle might not make much difference. Ground tackle needs to be looked at as whole, not as little parts and it depends on what else you are using - as your 'big' shackle and slightly oversized chain is a different scenario to a big shackles and slightly undersized chain.
So I confess - to engender articulation we use 3/8th" shackles on our Fortress and alloy Spade and a 1/2" shackle on our alloy Excel (because the alloy Excel shank is lightly too beefy for the 3/8th" shackle). We have a steel Excel (the same size a the alloy version) which is collecting dust in my workshop and it accepts the 3/8th" shackle with ease. Like you - we opted for a bigger shackle (but are using an Omega link as the enlarged link at the end of our 6mm G80 chain).
I'll find a link to Omega link and edit later.
You are not alone!
Jonathan
http://www.vanbeest.com/getattachme...-3d01b0fa2bc1/chapter02_grade10_products.aspx
If you scroll down a few pages, to page 234, you will find the Omega links we use as enlarged links on our 'small' link chain and pair with our 3/8th" or 1/2" shackles. The Omega links are quite small, smaller than a 3/8th" shackle. We have them galvanised locally (and if you ask nicely you could find someone sympathetic in the UK). This range of hardware, 'Excel' is made by Van Beest, the Green Pin shackle people in their French factory. If you galvanise (or have it done for you) you will lose strength and we use G100 components. Sensibly have a few done at a time - and then as they wear - you will have spares.
close edit
Last edited:
