Criticism of the RNLI

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Sybarite

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Did not begin with me on this forum.

Here are a selection of comments made before I even became a member of the forum in Oct 2002:

byron 24/10/01

“Contrary to what most people believe, the RNLI receive a payment from HMCG each time they are launched.”

“....having landed the casualties, they (RNLI) can re-launch and attempt to save the vessel. In which case they (the crew) are responsible for all fuel used and any damage occasioned to the Lifeboat.”

“I have the utmost respect for Lifeboat Crews indeed some of my best friends are Lifeboat men. I have an equal regard for those lovely people who collect on their behalf. I wouldn't dare print here my opinions of the guys at the top though.”

“Unfortunately the RNLI waste dosh....”

“....the Lifeboat Crews. I have the utmost respect for them, it is upper management I point my finger at.”

“ ...Why should the RNLI get the profits, they are already fabulously wealthy....”

pvb 12/12/01

“The RNLI is swimming in cash! They have hundreds of millions of pounds in the kitty and can't spend it fast enough.”

“If you look more closely at the RNLI Report & Accounts 2001, you'll see that their total reserves are a massive £503 million!
The £148 million you quoted is only what the RNLI likes to call its "free reserves".
You'll also see that the RNLI (largely thought of by the public as an unpaid volunteer service) actually spent over £28 million on "staff costs" in 2001.
Incidentally, their staff also benefit from a final salary pension scheme (remember those?) which had over £100 million tucked away at the end of 2001.”

“You forget that this thread is about the veracity of the statistics issued by the RNLI. As yachtsmen, we actually have an awful lot to lose as a result of the RNLI's dubious statistics. We stand to lose our freedom.”

“I unreservedly admire the dedication and courage of the men and women who crew the lifeboats, but I think the management and administration functions (as with many large charities) are less admirable.”

philmarks 23/01/02

“....They have more money than they know what to do with.”

Paulrossall

“....I have resigned as a long time member/subscriber, as this is the only way to get the Fat Cat Administrators at the RNLI to take notice...”

ccscott49

“The RNLI lost the plot a long time ago,...” “....They are throwing money away...”

ParaHandy

“ While chatting to Freemantle (RNLI) was the disparity between the funding of RNLI & French SNMS mentioned? The French make v. pointed reference to this.”

“There is one statistic which I have yet to understand: the cost of the French SNMS compared with RNLI. The RNLI costs ten times as much.”

Chris_Stannard 22/05/02

“I personally believe that in some respects the RNLI has lost its way a bit, with the great glass palace at Poole, which is a monument to self perpetuating bureaucracy”

tcm

“In the UK there is a fabulously rich charity in the form of the RNLI...”

SteveA

“I ... have to agree with some of the other threads that there is a question over the "top management" of this organisation - grass roots is incredible but there seems to be a lot of "hangers on".”

dickh

“A friend of mine who is an accountant, member of RNLI and a yachtsman has also commented on their massive reserves and says they must be one of the richest charities in the UK.”
 
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So what? they do a good job and one day I might need them so no criticism from me although I do tend to give to the independents like Gaffirs rather than the RNLI.
 
“Contrary to what most people believe, the RNLI receive a payment from HMCG each time they are launched.”



“....having landed the casualties, they (RNLI) can re-launch and attempt to save the vessel. In which case they (the rescued boat’s crew) are responsible for all fuel used and any damage occasioned to the Lifeboat.”

This is simply wrong: in my early days I can remember the odd salvage claim for which the LB paid for fuel and any damage done to the LB. Salvage claims today are a thing of the past, our crew has not claimed salvage for some 30 years. If I can remember the rule book correctly the LB crew were hiring the LB to carry out the salvage

I have never heard of the RNLI being given a payment by HMCG every time a lifeboat is launched. Just because something is posted on a forum does not mean it is correct
 
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For me it wouldn't matter if you were the first to criticise them or raise questions about the organisation - a bit of scrutiny is good for organisations and for society generally.
Nothing should be above polite scrutiny and, in UK, generally nothing is. Organisations that are immune from scrutiny generally go badly wrong - Kids' Company is a recent example but it follows in a long line of what should be honourable institutions. If the Royal Household can have its books pored over and questioned by Parliament then so can everyone else.
Re the RNLI - only a fool would confuse questions about the organisation of the RNLI with the placing of a question mark over the boats' crews.
 
Hmmm. Glad someone brought up Kids Company. They went to the wall because their funding and spending model was deeply flawed. That is, they spent every penny they cold lay their hands on despite being warned repeatedly that they needed to build up a reserve so as to maintain their activities if their funding streams dried up for some reason. They also expanded their activities without regard to how they would sustain their spending in the event of a funding failure. They ignored this guidance and when, finally, their funding stream dried up, they went to the wall within days.

In contrast, the RNLI matches their reserves to their funding streams to their activities and has the security to plan well ahead in the knowledge that their reserves will meet their forecast spending in the unlikely event of a funding failure. Whilst I understand that the OP has a burning desire to pillory the RNLI if he cares to stop and think about it he has no real grounds for complaint. If he has, he should be submitting a case to the Charity Commisioners for them to undertake an inquiry into th activities of the RNLI rather than, once again, venting his spleen on these forums.
And that's it from me. I'm beyond bored with this.
 
Lets take a few things as a given so that we don't get sidetracked (I am not suggesting they are all true)
* It has simply massive reserves.
* It has an outrageously and unnecessarily expensive headquarters
* It pays its "top brass" more than it should do/needs to do.
* It could operate more efficiently and take a few lessons from the French in that regard :)

The real question is "so what?" and what would be done differently.
To the best of my knowledge it provides a full and proper service - it has full coverage of the UK and Ireland with high quality equipment, highly trained staff with the best personal equipment. It develops its own boats and builds them in the UK so is planning for the future (yes it could buy stock boats but then - if there were no other downside - it would have even greater reserves). So it spends out what it needs to do and the criticisms are not of penny-pinching or putting the crews at risk.

So you can meet your annual budget readily and you know you can do so for a number of years - perhaps more than would ordinarily be permitted for a charity by the Charities Commission which likes charities to get on with their work by spending what they have. But see above - if you are the RNLI you spend all you sensibly can and there are not more casualties out there being ignored which a bit more spending would assist. You do not/cannot branch out into mainland Europe or Africa and there is no alternative organisation to take over. The market is saturated or provided for. There is no other area in which to spend money sensibly.

You are the big chief - do you say "lets stop fundraising for a few years. I know this organisation has been built on the twin complimentary strands of a) bravery of the crews and b) the public's recognition of that bravery by its generosity. But for a few years I will stop one of those strands"

If I was the big chief, once I was satisfied that the operations were as effective and as safe as can be, I would then be paranoid that the reserves dipped on my watch and would do all I could to ensure that I handed it on in at least as good financial shape as I inherited it.
If there is no penny pinching or lack of proper expansion/development then the availability of massive reserves is a (equally massive) non-sequitur.

A commercial example might be Apple. It spends all it wants on itself, R&D and customer service etc. Yet it has bonkers amounts of cash but a very limited area in which to spend it if it is not to just throw it away. It could give it back to shareholders or keep it. Translating that across to the RNLI really just leaves the "keep it" option.
 
dogleg said:
This is simply wrong: in my early days I can remember the odd salvage claim for which the LB paid for fuel and any damage done to the LB. Salvage claims today are a thing of the past, our crew has not claimed salvage for some 30 years.
Click to expand...

As I understand it, the RNLI nowadays require crewmembers on joining to undertake that they will never claim salvage while on RNLI activities or using RNLI equipment. Thing of the past, as you say.

Pete
 
dogleg said:
“Contrary to what most people believe, the RNLI receive a payment from HMCG each time they are launched.”



“....having landed the casualties, they (RNLI) can re-launch and attempt to save the vessel. In which case they (the rescued boat’s crew) are responsible for all fuel used and any damage occasioned to the Lifeboat.”

This is simply wrong: in my early days I can remember the odd salvage claim for which the LB paid for fuel and any damage done to the LB. Salvage claims today are a thing of the past, our crew has not claimed salvage for some 30 years. If I can remember the rule book correctly the LB crew were hiring the LB to carry out the salvage

I have never heard of the RNLI being given a payment by HMCG every time a lifeboat is launched. Just because something is posted on a forum does not mean it is correct
Click to expand...


Here is a (nearly) complete extract of the exchange. Don't forget the person affirming this is one of our esteemed moderators.

byron
Re: commercial tow

“This commercial tow harks back to the late 70s. People were calling up HMCG and saying they needed a tow. Lifeboats were being launched only to find that it wasn't an emergency it was a matter of someone having run out of fuel. In one instance I was despatched by Calshot Coastguard to a vessel only to find that he had "run out of wind" and felt he couldn't go fast enough on his engine to beat the tide in time to make a dinner date.
The then D.O. took a conscious decision to establish if a tow warranted the classification 'emergency' if not then a commercial tow would be the answer. The cost of the tow would be a matter of negotiation between the two parties.
Contrary to what most people believe the RNLI receive a payment from HMCG each time they are launched.”

kimhollamby
Re: commercial tow

Byron, the interesting thing here is that, in countless hours of listening to VHF Ch16/67 it's the first time I've specifically heard offer of a commercial tow to a leisure boat. How much are RNLI paid?

byron
Re: commercial tow

I am totally out of touch with what the cost is. I do know that in the late 70s the charge for the Navy Helicopters out of Daedelus was something like £400 per hour.
I do know that salvage cannot be claimed under these circumstances and even if it were claimable amount received is entire dependent on various factors i.e. the danger the rescuer put themselves in, the expertise used etc. etc.

As a further matter of interest the RNLI do not claim salvage by their own rules. The Coxswain can save the souls, having landed the casualties they can re-launch and attempt to save the vessel. In which case they (the crew) are responsible for all fuel used and any damage occasioned to the Lifeboat.

jfm
Re: funding of RNLI

Byron is that definitely true, that RNLI are paid by HMCG? In other words are you saying RNLI is not funded entirely by voluntary donations (as they claim) but by the taxpayer?


byron
Re: funding of RNLI

I have been an Auxiliary Coastguard for over a quarter of a century. In that time I have done more than my fair share of tows and never taken a penny. If there is no danger to life or limb one's first option is to find a vessel local assistance say in the form of a fellow yachtsman. The other option is a commercial tow. If there is danger to life or limb it is a legal requirement for other vessels to render assistance. If they are in a position to do so. (Merchant Shipping Act)

As regards the RNLI receiving launch monies from HMCG. What they get would never pay for the service but every little helps.
 
duncan99210 said:
he has no real grounds for complaint. If he has, he should be submitting a case to the Charity Commisioners for them to undertake an inquiry into th activities of the RNLI rather than, once again, venting his spleen on these forums.
.
Click to expand...

Here is another post from 2002 concerning the apparent request from the authorities to the RNLI - following the Marchioness disaster - to create 4 stations in the Thames Estuary which forum members at the time said should be the responsibility of the River authorities :

philmarks 23/01/02
MCA/RNLI
.....
"They (RNLI) have £25m a week income (yes) [Sybarite : No not true - £4m perhaps ] and have been told by the Charity Commissioners to stop fundraising for a while. They are now considering basing lifeboats on lakes. They have more money than they know what to do with. I wonder what the subs will be for an Offshore Member (Lakes)? I certainly don't want my subs subbing the Treasury."

I have no way of verifying this.
 
longjohnsilver said:
What prompted this? And some of those quotes are not criticisms, merely observations.
Click to expand...

Sybarite-I note what you say-and obviously have an obsession with.

Surely the time for critisism is when they fail in the task the have taken on. If they fail with the resources they have they will deserve censure.

Until then look at what we have in the UK and Ireland.

The leading lifeboat service in the word-and its free if you need it. Contributors are happy to give, many are happy to be members.

Despite your views-which you are perfectly entitled to-its boats sell like hot cakes to other countries rescue services when pensioned off.
It may be possible to buy ready made craft significantly cheaper elsewhere. Surely this would lead to higher reserves-another of your gripes.

It is clear that your view on the RNLI is in the minority with forum users.

Can I respectfully ask you to stop beating the same old drum?

Prosim.........................
 
Having attempted to use the search feature on here several times, I think you have way too much time on your hands, does you your boat not have any wooden bits that need varnishing? :D

But seriously, of the two options, the RNLI having too much money or too little, I know which I'd rather.
 
Crewing voluntary.
Contributions voluntary.
Would you restrict people's inclination in either case?

Having laid out, again, the problems with the RNLI, let's hear how you would like to see it run. What changes would you make?
 
My issue with the RNLI is we had engine failure off Eastbourne and we are sailing along happily but there is a canal and lock and the canal is upwind. So I called the marina and asked if they could send their boat to pick us up at the entrance to the canal, before they could answer the RNLI called and said they would pick us up, they dropped at the entrance to the canal and the marina boat took us through the canal to a berth. The next day in the local press they announced that they had rescued us whereas we had called for the marina boat. It seriously annoyed us and we haven't been fans since.
 
KellysEye said:
My issue with the RNLI is we had engine failure off Eastbourne and we are sailing along happily but there is a canal and lock and the canal is upwind. So I called the marina and asked if they could send their boat to pick us up at the entrance to the canal, before they could answer the RNLI called and said they would pick us up, they dropped at the entrance to the canal and the marina boat took us through the canal to a berth. The next day in the local press they announced that they had rescued us whereas we had called for the marina boat. It seriously annoyed us and we haven't been fans since.
Click to expand...

Of course all these so-called 'rescues' are good money-raising propaganda.
I'm sure Sybarite who lives in France, sees the massive spend of the RNLI compared with its French equivalent finds those comparisons odious!
The way the hierarchy 'reimburse' themselves is also shameful.
All charities should be compelled to publish clearly their staffing reimbursements.
 
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