CQR difficulties

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scarlett

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Has anyone any experience of solving the problem on my 30 LB Plastimo CQR copy not digging in in fine sand?

My idea is to add about 10 LB of melted lead into the nose area underneath but it is only a guess at a solution.

If anyone has had experience please let me know before I waste my time onn such a task!

Thanks to everyone who replies .

I will pick up in a couple of weeks as I am sailing at the moment.

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If the sand is fairly hard packed, you will have difficulties.
My solution on hardsand is to let out considerable scope (5-1 on chain) lay the chain out on the bottom but don't let much weight goe on the anchor. The aim is to let the anchor do its initial bedding in by just sinking in the sand by the action of the current. I then go gently astern (and I mean gently). Seems to work. I never have had any success in trying to pull the anchor in hard on any surface. 70 HP and a big prop causes it to capsize and come out.

Feel the anchor chain with your toe for any vibrations which means it is not set.

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I too have problems with a CQR on fine, loose sand over rock, or powdered coral, though it is my preferred anchor on virtually every other surface.

One of my CQR's is in fact a lookalike with a weighted tip, but fares no better. I think it is the shape of the anchor failing to get a strong enough grip. A Bruce seems to work better on this type of bottom.

If you have a lookalike it is important that it should follow the CQR design very closely. Hiscock makes this point, and my own experience is that other plough types have not proved satisfactory (including Delta).

I sharpen the tip of the anchor which helps aid penetration on thick weed.
 
My only failure to bed a Delta anchor, in more than 10 years of ownership of 25 and 35 lb examples, was on hard, fine sand. This was just north of the entrance to Pwllheli marina. Despite many attempts it just would not go in. Hard sand is notoriously problematic for this type of anchor, Delta, CQR, etc.

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Altering design ....

can actually prove worse than original as the design is balanced. It is designed to fall and lay on side to dig in - weighting it may just upset this function and reduce its effectiveness in all sorts of other conditions.

Fine sand notoriously packs hard and is difficult for most anchors to get a hold in ....... and that is why I always advocate larger heavier anchors with all chain rodes - then you act similar to a ships anchor where the anchor just holds the chain, chain weight and scope holds the boat / ship.

If you really want an anchor to hold in hard / fine sand - then an admiralty pattern may be the answer - but don't go the lightweight route that books give in their tables ! Go for the heaviest you can handle.

I have a 30lb CQR with all chain for main bower + 25lb fishermans with short chain and rope for kedge on my 25ft boat ..... they've held in storms / heavy weather etc. etc.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
 
This is only opinion, but I work on the basis that it takes weight to set and area to hold. So for a given anchor style and area, heavier generally means easier setting. Again, in my opinion only, the weight of a cruiser's anchor and chain should be enough to hold an attended watched vessel for casual (lunch stop, fishing) reasonable weather and current condition anchoring on any bottom, even without it setting and this is where a light high performance anchor fails. But in the end for hard ground such as flat rock or compacted sand one is out of luck with whatever weight and area and for other than casual anchoring one is best advised to go elsewhere.

We carry only CQRs (accurate copies) the two main of which are 60 lb and all chain cable. We have regularly anchored casually on poor holding or unknown bottoms, and have sat out sustained Force 9 winds (with the anchorage "smoking") on short 3:1 scopes because of deep water, or in lesser squally weather (blown the solid fibreglass dinghy off the deck) with the boat riding around 360 degrees, on known good holding with one anchor only. We have never dragged (YET! We surely will sometime).

So, in my view, adding weight to your existing anchor (as long as it does not upset its posture) will improve casual anchoring (at the expense of heavier handling), will make little difference to secure anchoring in good holding, and will never provide secure anchoring on hard ground.

John

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Anchor weights .....

Comiung from Commercial background and like many here on the forums ... many years pottering about in boats .......

I generally consider the table wieghts given for 'recc'd anchors' to be too light. Consider a small motor boat - particularly the high freeboard, windage jobs .... recc'd anchor could be 10 - 15lb, but the windage is great and the boat snatches and digs at the anchor meaning weight should be increased .... especially when a lot of boats nowadays use warp instead of chain.
take a sailboat with the increased windaghe and freeboard over traditional designs earlier ... similar applies. I advocate that 25lb is lightest CQR for any boat other than real small boats or dinghy's. Even then the small 'joke' anchors found about 5lb etc. would prove useless in any moderate blow .....

There is no subsitute for sheer weight and design..... along with chain.

Finally consider this ..... a light anchor will not bury / dig in - so a small boat has no benefit from it ... back to the heavier ones again !!



<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
 
Re: Interesting posting. Why ...

Hi Andrew. Well the second one is really just a spare with part chain and a long nylon rode for very deep anchoring only, as I have always felt that setting two anchors in heavy conditions might be asking for a drag if the wind changes (as it frequently can in high hill surrounded anchorages) and the rodes twist. So they are big with the view that I hope I never feel the need to set a second anchor, but would if absolutely necessary. So far I have never had to, but we have had my wife and I both up all night ready to cut the anchor adrift and with the engine ready to run just in case - that has happened even in Ship Cove one night with sustained 40 to 50 knot winds, but not alot of wave action, and uncertain direction because of the hills. Ship Cove was Captain Cook's favourite long term anchorage out here, and he spent part of every voyage in there. We carry a third lighter CQR as a kedge or stern anchor but as we normally are happy swinging it rarely gets used.

I reckoned that if big vessels could get by with just one anchor style, so could I. Once I made the decision to go to heavy anchors, the concept of manhandling alternate anchor styles around lost its appeal. So far, 60 lb on the end of a chain cable has served every purpose, but as you probably gathered from my post, we do not expect the impossible in so far as holding is concerned.

Another indirect thing was that I wanted to increase the longitudinal moment of inertia of the boat, by keeping weight in the ends, to reduce pitching in the steep short seas we get here around Cook Strait.

John

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Longitudinal moment of inertia

I've always assumed that putting extra weight at the ends of the yacht would INCREASE the effect of pitching. Is this a fallacy? Should I not bother thinking about storing my anchor chain more towards the centre of the yacht?

That's Ship Cove near Nelson, South Island?

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As Andrew pointed out, CQR copies are not equal to the original. Some 30 years ago, YM did a comparative test of CQR copies and found a Cerman one particularly deficient. A Plastimo copy might be no better (it didn't exist at the time of that YM trial). But a Danforth might do the trick on hard sand as they were conceived for landing barges in WW II who would go for sand beaches to unload the soldiers or equipment. As far as eight is concerned, Ann Hammick used a 25 lb (real) CQR on her 35 ft boat and I have a 20 lb one on my 29 ft boat and never had a draaging problem until now (maybe next week...).
john

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The genuine CQR's had lead in the tip, so I would say go for it. A plate welded on the bottom, then filled with lead should do, also sharpen the point, it will help, but fone hard sand, is the worse scenerio for CQR's.

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Re: Longitudinal moment of inertia

Andrew, yes that is Ship Cove near Nelson. Well nearish in a straight line but I guess (haven't got a chart at home here) around 80nm or so by sea.

On the pitching. The higher the moment of inertia (ie the more weight at the ends) the harder it is to rotate a body - straight physics and no question over that at all. However, for a yacht it is not quite as simple. I am not a naval architect nor do I claim to have any special expertise in yacht hydrodynamics, so the following is not authorative and is open to challenge (if anyone does that please start a new thread, I would be really interested in your views and experiences). In the same way as when rolling a yacht has a natural longitudinal natural frequency (smaller MOI gives higher frequency) which if the encounters with oncoming waves is at the same frequency one gets resonance and exaggerated motion. For performance (speed), there is no question - keep the weight out of the ends and target a natural frequency higher than the expected frequency of encounter with waves as with increasing MOI wave resistance goes up reaching a maximum (I think) at the natural frequency of the boat. However, in a cruising yacht, kindness of motion is an important consideration, and from what I can see, MOI may at worst only make a 1-2% difference in windward speed. Other things affect pitching too of course, such as the overhangs, topsides flare, fineness of the forward lines and freeboard.

In some work boats where a stable work platform is desired, weight is built into the outer extremities of the beam to dampen rolling. I saw an excellent example of this effect somewhere, and that is we have all experienced how a dinghy is much more stable against rolling if two people in it sit side by side across the boat (which increases transverse MOI) rather than if they sit fore and aft. The same affects apply for longitudinal stability except that you put the weights fore and aft.

All that said, in the end, the effect of placing chain and anchors at the end has generally a small effect compared to the really great contributors to MOI and those are the mast and keel. Also, putting weight in one end and not the other means that the yacht has to have the water plane area in that end to provide the extra displacement without excessive change in trim.

In the end all yachts are compromises, we did what we did and the boat has turned out to be very seakindly in steep seas with slow longitudinal and transverse accelerations. We have found on several occasions we have had difficulty into very strong and extensive rip seas under power, for example, around 2 - 3 meter waves with a pitch similar to the boat length (in the open sea they would have a pitch of around 50m - around 4 of our boat lengths) so the bow is trying to rise on one wave while the aft is still well up on the last.

So we cannot be accused of hijacking an anchoring thread, it is important to remember that for small vessels, all of the above things apply when at anchor as even though the vessel is not moving with respect to the ground and sea, the waves are travelling by from fore to aft (usually!). Longitudinal stability reduces pitching at anchor and so increases comfort and holding.

I didn't want to hijack the thread on this but the answer to your question Andrew is not straightforward. I await the flame throwers, whose opinions I welcome (in another thread perhaps).

John

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Re: Longitudinal moment of inertia

Andrew, importantly, I should have added that moving chain forward almost always will result in raising the vessel's centre of gravity, thus reducing its stability, all else being equal.

John

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Re: Longitudinal moment of inertia

Thanks for this detailed explanation. As you say, it would be useful to repost it in its own thread later on to get others' opinions.

Incidentally flaming, on technical subjects, is mercifully rare on this board unless someone makes the same point over and over. Some of the other boards on this site are a little more robust.
 
Re: An OLD design..

When the CQR was designed, more than 70 years aggo.. it was a great improvement over the existing products.. (nearly nothing except the Fisherman Anchor..)
But this concept is now over and much better products are available on the market .. (see the last article published by Morgan's Cloud - www.morganscloud.com - about anchoring in difficult situations and published this month in Cruising World..)

The main problem of this design (CQR) is the wrong repartition of Weight..
Weight is one of the secrets of penetration and Weight on the tip of the CQR is only 18% of the total anchor's weight,, Pouring lead in the tip will not change the repartition (or very few..) as the weight at the level of the hinge is much too heavy.. the weight repatition on the shank is 67% of the total anchor's weight .. and this is why, when pulled hard, the CQR goes up side down with the tip acting like the periscope of a submarine at the surface of the sand.. (see the very good comparative study published by Pr John Knox on PBO July and August 2002)

The manufacturer of the CQR is well award of the problem and is actively pushing the DELTA anchor.. a CQR like anchor but with no hinge and a more heavy weight (28%) at the tip..

Only conservative poeple are still trusting the CQR...

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What about a deal for Skuttlers??

Many of us here are convinced that the Spade is a superior product - however it really is too pricey to convince me to ditch my 45lb CQR. How about giving us a special price for a bulk order - I could handle the collation of it.

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Re: Some more though..

Back in my boat, I download all questions and anwers I have copied from the Cyber cafe and I take more time to study and answer all points..

Please consider that it is only my own opinion as well as results published by different anchor studies done by several Magazines: “Practical Boat Owner”, “Practical Sailor” in U.S.A or “Voiles et Voiliers” and “Voile magazine” in France.. among others..

To Chris_Robb

On really hard sand, like the one you can find in the Eastern Med.. You can try what ever solution you want.. you will drag your CQR for miles and it will never set.. Two reasons for that:
Not enough weight at the tip.. but more important: when the CQR is lying on its side (the natural anchoring position of “plow” anchors..) the surface which is in contact with the sea bottoms can be compared to the one of a “spreader” and as you know, a spreader has never be designed to digg in…

As you probably know too, the CQR is not sold with weight lower to 7 kg.. for a very simple reason small CQR models doesn’t work… In soft bottoms, the weight on the tip will aid the tip to digg in until the uper surface of the “plough” side will be burried and then this surface present the profile of a “chisel” and a “chisel” has the only right profile to digg in…

To AndrewB

“A Bruce seems to work better” The main and ONLY advantage of the Bruce is its ability to digg in.. One of the best from the existing market.. but ALL tests agree to give to the Bruce one of the lowest holding… about 1/3 to 1/5 of the modern anchors..

Comparing the holding of the CQR to the one of the DELTA
Practical Sailor: 35 lbs CQR = 672 lbs 22 lbs DELTA = 553 lbs Advantage DELTA
Practical Boat Owner: 5 kg CQR = 75 kg 6 kg Delta = 70 kg Advantage CQR
Voiles Magazine: CQR 11.3 Kg = 500 kg Delta 10 kg = 500 kg Advantage DELTA
Voiles & Voiliers : CQR 16.5 Kg = 900 kg Delta 15.5 kg = 400 kg Advantage CQR

Yes, sharpen the tip of the CQR will help aid penetration, but the solution is to give to the anchor a “chisel” like shape.. this means designing a new anchor…

To vyv_cox

You’re absolutely right “Hard sand is notoriously problematic for this type of anchor, Delta, CQR “ and this is the consequence of the desing of the angle of penetration from the anchor’s tip..

To nigel_luther

Yes you’re right too, the CQR “is designed to fall and lay on side to dig in” but sorry weighting it will not upset this function, in fact as the added weight sould be ON THE TIP.. there is not enough space to add enough lead to really improve the digging characteristics of the anchor…

No “fine sand notoriously packs hard and is difficult for most anchors to get a hold in” fine hard sand is one of the most difficult sea ground to penetrate, mostly for the anchors designs which don’t have enough weight and/or the right penetrating angle… but when they have penetrate.. this hard sand give a very good holding..

Heavier anchors with all chain rodes will not solve the problem.. a light ALUMINIUM anchor with enough weight at the tip and the RIGHT penetrating angle used with only ROPE will give by far much better results than an heavy CQR with an all chain rode..

If it is only “chain weight and scope that hold the boat” you should urgently consider changing your anchor…

Admiralty pattern??? Please forget about it.. it’s best use is for the decoration of your back yard.. It’s holding compared weight for weigh with modern anchors is less than 1/10.. it doesn’t work better on grass nor in rock..

And please don’t consider that holding is related to the anchor’s weight.. but to the anchor’s SURFACE AREA burried on and to the SHAPE of this surface (concave the best..)

“You have a 30lb CQR with all chain for main bower + 25lb fishermans with short chain and rope for kedge on my 25ft boat ..... they've held in storms / heavy weather etc. etc.”
I also have a 30 lb anchor as the main anchor for my 39’ / 14 tons boat and as a full time live aboard for nearly 12 years now.. I have also experienced heavy weather… and hard sand..

To MainlySteam

“I work on the basis that it takes weight to set and area to hold.” Your are nearly right..
but setting can be done by two possibilities: Static setting and dynamic setting..

The best is to combine the two possibilities: Weight will force the anchor tip to digg in and then the pulling force will continue the digging in process.. But if you have both a sharp tip and the right penetrating angle, the importance of the weight will be largely diminished.. Consider the total weight of a CQR which will just slide on hard sand and the sharp fluke of the light Fortress anchor….

And when set… the weight has nearly no more importance, surface area and Shape will be the two secrets of a good holding (together with stability..)

To nigel_luther (again)

“I generally consider the table weights given for 'recc'd anchors' to be too light.” Not only too light but completely WRONG… Weight sould not be taken into condideration, but these tables should be given by anchor’s surface area .. and these tables are only given as an indication, it is the responsibility of each of us to adapt the size of the anchor to the specific characteristics of our boats..

To ccscott49

“The genuine CQR's had lead in the tip” NO… this is wrong.. there is NO lead..

To all..

As I’m making the same points over and over, talking about penetration angle; weight repartition, importance of surface area related to holding etc.. I hope to not create a “Flaming” but I’m open to all discussions and to give more deeply detailled explanations about my theories…

Safe anchorages to all..

Alain


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Re: What about a deal for Skuttlers??

Hi Chris..

I just read the paper published in the August issue of Cruising World: "Staying Put in Tricky anchorages" by John Harries (www.morganscloud.com) very instructive indeed...

Yes I know the problem: the SPADE is very costly to manufacture.. But what about the Océane.. developped to slove this question of price.. a very efficient anchor at half the price of the Spade.. I believe this will answer your request??? (www.oceane-anchor.com)



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Re: What about a deal for Skuttlers??

I looked at the oceane but the don't kame one large enough for a 14 ton 40 Ketch I need the equivalent of 45lb. Do they do one????

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