CQR difficulties

[MainlySteam]

Re: Some more though..

Hylas, thanks for the response to my comments. I think we are of much the same mind. I agree that there are dynamic elements involved in setting or, as the case may be, lack of setting. For the sake of economy of words I did not go into those.

Perhaps the only thing we may not be so closely aligned on is that like the yachts they are carried on, all anchors are compromises - the perfect one does not exist and likely never will.

Despite your commercial associations I value your comments - I have followed the ybw forums for quite some time now (but just recently had the time to take part) and regard you as an asset to them.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[vyv_cox]

Re: What about a deal for Skuttlers??

Having kept up with the developments of Spade and Oceane, I can see that the Spade is a desirable piece of equipment but it has two main disadvantages:
1. Price. It seems generally to be about twice that of many other anchors
2. It is very large, but the ability to disassemble it may help for stowage. I suspect, although i have never been able to measure one, that the depth of the shank will prevent it fitting beneath the furler drum on my boat, and probably many others. I also suspect that when stowed on the bow roller it might be rather unstable and that the tip would clash with the stem of the boat.

In the photographs I have seen it appears that the Oceane is all welded and therefore cannot be disassembled. Is this correct?

I like the idea of having a Spade as my heaviest, emergency anchor for future extended cruising but these two points are putting me off. Any comments?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Jacket]

Re: Some more though..

<The main and ONLY advantage of the Bruce is its ability to digg in.. One of the best from the existing market.. but ALL tests agree to give to the Bruce one of the lowest holding… about 1/3 to 1/5 of the modern anchors.. >

I now use a Bruce, and love it, as its the only anchor I've never dragged (having said that, its now going to drag next time I use it).

Which makes me wonder if holding power is over-rated. I'd arge that the actual holding power required to hold a yacht is relatively low, and that most cases of dragging are cused by an unstable anchor being broken out as the boat shears around, and the failing to reset. In which case, a stable anchor that sets easily is what you want.

What I've never seen is any data on the loads applied to an anchor by a yacht (need to be measured where the chain or rode joins the anchor, rather than where the rode meets the yacht, which is meaningless). have you come across any such data?


<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Mirelle]

Re: Some more though..

I think that an anchor will normally hold unless it is broken out either

(a) by the boat swinging to tide - this I reckon is unusual as normally the boat will lie to the chain - or

(b) by a shock load. typically due to the boat snatching at her chain. The shock load must be many times the static load.

If you look at merchant ship anchors, they are incredibly crude affairs - the old Admiralty Stockless is out but the new HHP types are very similar. Semi-submersible oil rigs and drill ships are a whole different story and commonly use Bruce anchors.

I have two CQRs and I am happy with them for what I do.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MainlySteam]

Re: Some more though..

Andrew - I have often wondered, for large merchant ships, how effective their anchoring is with apparantly simple and comparatively small anchors. Certainly, out here, they anchor in some quite exposed locations (both wind and swells), but in normal events seem to be able to stay put without much problem.

I would be very interested in your comments on the anchoring performance of large merchant vessels.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[jeanne]

Re: Some more though..

Just a comment on heavy CQRs - ours is a 75lbs for a heavy displacement long keeler about 12 tons all up; we acquired it 'by accident' from someone advertising a 60lb anchor. It is slightly different in pattern to modern CQRs and we contacted Simpson Lawrence who told us it was designed for flying boats some time ago....! The point is this, we always use it in preference to our others as we like to sleep soundly, and in 20 years, apart from mud, it has never dug right in - not surprising really. But it has held us in a 3 day gale and even though we set our admiralty pattern 56lb as well on that occasion, the CQR took all the weight & still never dug into the sand. For me, weight wins every time. I should mention that we have a bowsprit which, with a windlass, makes handling the brute possible as it self stows. As we are now long term cruising again and getting rather aged, we have finally resorted to an electric windlass - magic!

Incidentally, to our friends amusement, all our anchors have names painted on them - the biggie is called Mogadon; the 56lb fisherman is Double Brandy; the 25lb fisherman is Brandy and the 35lb Danforth is merely Cocoa!!


<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[hylas]

Re: Some more though..

Some answers..

“I looked at the oceane but they don't came one large enough for a 14 ton 40 Ketch I need the equivalent of 45lb. Do they do one????”
The largest size of the Océane is 16 kg.. for boats up to 16 meters (52’) L.O.A. and displacement of 12 tons.. and the Océane 16 kg has more surface area than the 30 kg SPADE designed for 20 meters / 20 tons boats..

For heavier anchors.. Spade is still manufacturing the full range of Spade anchors..

MainlySteam

Oh yes.. I still fully agree with you.. Unfortunately the perfect anchor doesn’t exist (and never will..)

But for me, they are two familly of anchors.. The “unstable” ones and the “stable” ones..
- Unstable anchors are DANGEROUS.. as they will break out.. usually at the worse time and they MUST be avoided..
- The stable familly could sligtly drag under the most strong pulls.. but will never break out..
Out of the “stable” familly, some anchors are better than others, but they all are good products..

vyv_cox

I agree also with your comments.. we know the Spade anchor is not a cheap product.. but this is due to its complex manufacturing.. and it is not possible to decrease the price..
Yes the price could be twice that of some cheap products.. but not, if you compare it with the price of the CQR.. in most countries world wide, the SPADE is about 10% cheaper than the (genuine) CQR.. and nobody complain about the CQR’s Price

Now you should also compare apples and apples.. If you compare anchors weight for weight.. the Spade could be considered as expensive.. but if you compare anchors Holding for holding.. the Spade is one of the cheapest anchor… and when buying an anchor, do you buy weight or holding and safety??

About size?? Compared weight for weight, the Spade is not larger than its competitors (The Oceane is..)

The question of the Furler drum is related to the design of the boat.. on my own boat (www.hylas.ws) the drum is not at the Deck level but slightly higher.. and I don’t have any problem.. but this is the reason why we have designed a curved shank for the Océane.. and with its curved shank, there is no more interference with the furling drum..

The question of stability is also related to the design of the Bow roller.. Some works, some are not perfectly adjusted.. Again on my own boat, the bow roller has been designed for a CQR, I just have fixed a “Croissant” fender at the bow.. and the anchor is then blocked on it and perfectly stable.. I just arrived two days aggo in the island of Tenerife after 10 hours of rough sailing and I can assure you that the anchor didn’t move one millimeter..

The concept of the Oceane is for some points different, the shank is welded like the one of the Delta. But its design is as compact as possible (much shorter that most competitive anchors..)

You can have a Spade as a storm anchor.. but by experience, all sailors who bough a Spade as a spare.. did soon use it as the main anchor.. :0)..

Jacket

The question of « HOLDING » is a difficult one.. as too many factors are involved.. the first variable is the composition and cohesion of the sea bottom itself.. That’s why, tests are important as they try to compare different anchors in the same (or as identical as possible) conditions..

I know quite a lot of sailors who are fully satisfied by the Bruce.. First as I said before, it is one of the best “setting” anchors.. then if you are prudent enough to largely oversize it.. it will give you the service you are waiting for..

Talking about “Service” I’m sailing full time.. and I’m used to find crowded anchorages.. mostly during week ends and in summer.. Boats arrive around 10 to 11.. just on time for a drink.. and I know that at 5.. they will all be gone..
I have also been in some places with some blue water sailors anchored all around.. if the wind suddently build up, a large part of them start dragging..
Most anchors are well adapted for most of the “summer” service.. but not for heavy conditions which can happen suddently, including in summer time..

Loads applied to an anchor by a yacht have been computed by “American Boat and Yacht council” ( 3069 Solomons Island Road, Edgewater, MD 21037)


Mirelle

Yes, an anchor can be broken out either by the boat swinging to tide or by a shock load. typically due to the boat snatching at her chain. but also by the pulling force of the wind on the structures or by the action of the waves..

I’m always surprised to see how merchand ships anchor.. and the poor anchors they are using.. but their anchors are very heavy (by comparison with the small sizes we are using..) and they should digg in only by their weight.. When set, it would be rather difficult to move them throught the soil..

The story of the Bruce anchors and the oil rigs is another story.. as the “Bruce” anchors used for oil rigs have as only similarity the name of “Bruce” but are absolutely and completely different in design..

jeanne

As I said before, either with a Fisherman anchor, a CQR or a Bruce, if you seriously oversize them.. they will work..
Compare your 75 lbs CQR for your 12 tons boat, with the 15 kg (35 lbs) main anchor I’m using on my 14 tons boat..
How can you feel safe with an anchor which “has never dug right in”??? mine anchor always has diseapeared in less than one meter.. For me, the ability to digg in, as well as the efficient holding win every time over weight..

Peaceful anchorages for all..

Alain


<hr width=100% size=1>