Cost relative to boat LOA

[Mr Cassandra]

Hello
I don`t think Ive missed the point at all .If you have a boat in reasonable condition ,lets say how much more diesel a 55hp boat use over a 30 hp very little over the year .Engine oil the same.filters the same. Fresh water pumps ?
A rip in a small sail if going to cost the same as a rip in a large one.Fifty meter sheets are not a lot more than 40meter. As I have said if you are careful there is not a lot of difference in storage cost between a 11m boat and a 13m perhaps a couple of hundred euro,
What is worrying is that newbies used to the costs involved with English marinas, are willing to pay much more than I and other would consider prudent.

I believe there are more problem with lack of space than lack of money.

 

[asteven221]

Just back online and thanks to everyone for responding to my post.

It appears that my thoughts have been correct in that the only significant issue with a bigger boat is marina and yard fees. I suppose these days fuel will be an issue to think about, however I would hope that we would be sailing most of the time.

Out of interest is there any publication online or offline that lists Med marina fees? I realise that there is likely to be a lot of variations and information is likely to go out of date quite quickly. Nevertheless it would be really handy to try and get a feel for the most common LOA thresholds, where the price/meter jumps to the next level or price band.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[Slow_boat]

Well, last year I went to see my brother on his 41 footer he was living aboard in Barcelona. We were going to cruise south, maybe across to the Balierics. The deal was that I would pay the marina fees. The first night stopover was the marina at Villa Nova.

75 euros a night.

We went back to Barcelona next day. I only pay twice that for a years mooring at home!

When I go in my 33 footer, I intend to get past Spain as quickly as possible.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

I don`t think Ive missed the point at all .If you have a boat in reasonable condition ,lets say how much more diesel a 55hp boat use over a 30 hp very little over the year .Engine oil the same.filters the same. Fresh water pumps ?
A rip in a small sail if going to cost the same as a rip in a large one.Fifty meter sheets are not a lot more than 40meter. As I have said if you are careful there is not a lot of difference in storage cost between a 11m boat and a 13m perhaps a couple of hundred euro,
What is worrying is that newbies used to the costs involved with English marinas, are willing to pay much more than I and other would consider prudent.

I believe there are more problem with lack of space than lack of money.

I just plain don't agree with that..... need a new block?... yep its bigger and more expensive.... new mooring lines?... 16mm instead of 14mm?.... never mind, they're only a pound a metre more.... nav lights... ah yes... over 12m, so that'll be bigger more powerful bulbs... etc etc etc....

yes, it can be kept under control, but to pretend it is not much more expensive is just not true.

 

[Slow_boat]

That's why we had a self-imposed limit of 10 meters; We will be cruising on a budget.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Okay lets have two brand new boats say both Bavaria's fully fitted out one an 37 and the other a 44footer How much move do you think the larger one will cost to run and maintain over two years, little more than a few hundred euro.imo
Don`t forget there are some out here with watermakers costing thousands, when you can get drinking water for 3 euro a tonne or bottled water at 1.2 euro for 9 liters

Imo take the larger boat as long as its in the same condition as the smaller

 

[Tranona]

Okay lets have two brand new boats say both Bavaria's fully fitted out one an 37 and the other a 44footer How much move do you think the larger one will cost to run and maintain over two years, little more than a few hundred euro.imo
Don`t forget there are some out here with watermakers costing thousands, when you can get drinking water for 3 euro a tonne or bottled water at 1.2 euro for 9 liters

Imo take the larger boat as long as its in the same condition as the smaller

If you are talking about a new boat you are not far out in one respect. We made exactly that decision between a new 37 and a 42. For a start the 42 was over 30% more expensive to buy - so opportunity cost of then £30k was £1500 to start. However running costs over 2 years would not be much more - but as soon as you need to start replacing things nearly every bill would be 30% higher.

You can make up figures to support any argument if you want to by setting a priori conditions, but you cannot escape the fact that costs of running a boat in the long run are related to size and as volume increases by the cube of the notional length increase, costs will follow a similar pattern. And we have not considered the potential capital loss on the asset which can be both large and unpredictable.

In reality individuals adjust their expectations to suit their budgets - for some it will be to extract the maximum they can from their resources, others will minimise the cost of doing what they want to do. So some will go for the biggest boat they can afford and others will have the smallest they can to achieve what they want to do. Both can justify their position if asked.

 

[Moodyjim]

It sometimes gets overlooked that the bigger the boat the more complex it gets. More sea-cocks, more heads, more wiring, more bits, more lights. It really is more expensive to run and maintain - it's not just marina costs.

 

[charles_reed]

Well, last year I went to see my brother on his 41 footer he was living aboard in Barcelona. We were going to cruise south, maybe across to the Balierics. The deal was that I would pay the marina fees. The first night stopover was the marina at Villa Nova.

75 euros a night.

We went back to Barcelona next day. I only pay twice that for a years mooring at home!

When I go in my 33 footer, I intend to get past Spain as quickly as possible.

Well avoid Italy - Spanish prices are a bargain compared to that country (€88 and €150 for a 10M boat are two examples).*

 

[charles_reed]

Okay lets have two brand new boats say both Bavaria's fully fitted out one an 37 and the other a 44footer How much move do you think the larger one will cost to run and maintain over two years, little more than a few hundred euro.imo
Don`t forget there are some out here with watermakers costing thousands, when you can get drinking water for 3 euro a tonne or bottled water at 1.2 euro for 9 liters

Imo take the larger boat as long as its in the same condition as the smaller

Whilst I totally respect your opinion to have the larger boat you still have, in your comparisons not taken into account the real variable costs - like the replacement sail for the larger boat and the additional cost of antifouling.

This may be perversity, a lawyerly attempt to obscure truth or just plain lack of joined-up thinking.

 

[BrianH]

Well avoid Italy - Spanish prices are a bargain compared to that country (€88 and €150 for a 10M boat are two examples).*

Whilst I agree on your points generally Charles, you are being unnecessarily hard on Italy, quoting prices for the western coastline. We all know about certain Sardinian and Italian Riviera marinas but the Adriatic side, particularly north-eastern ports, can be quite modest. In fact, half the price of western coast ones and cheaper than across the Adriatic in Croatia. My berth in a well-appointed and maintained marina for a 10m x 4m stern-to box with water and electricity costs €2'600 p.a. and is fairly typical.

 

[1bobt]

Hi
Pleas go back to the OP he's talking about the difference between a 42and 47 footer both will be equally expensive to maintain, however there will be a markedly better experience with more space

 

[BrianH]

That's why we had a self-imposed limit of 10 meters; We will be cruising on a budget.

This was precisely my thinking process, but, to be fair, only for summer liveaboard, I'm a softey and go home to a warm house for the winter. If I wanted to be permanently aboard I wouldn't be in the Med but the Caribbean.

I judged the exponential cost curve steepened significantly at the 10m mark and much of the reason is not only the requirements of components and services but the mental perception of suppliers as to what the market can stand - bigger means richer in their eyes and margins increase disproportionally.

It is as much a state of mind as anything else - and, of course a ruthless culling of personal possessions - most of it is just 'stuff' ... Do I really, really, need this? The answer is usually, 'of course not', so don't take it.

 

[charles_reed]

Whilst I agree on your points generally Charles, you are being unnecessarily hard on Italy, quoting prices for the western coastline. We all know about certain Sardinian and Italian Riviera marinas but the Adriatic side, particularly north-eastern ports, can be quite modest. In fact, half the price of western coast ones and cheaper than across the Adriatic in Croatia. My berth in a well-appointed and maintained marina for a 10m x 4m stern-to box with water and electricity costs €2'600 p.a. and is fairly typical.

I have to say that, up the Adriatic, I've found lots of free anchorages/moorings and I'd agree that prices on the Italian Riviera and Capri are other-worldly. I've spent many comfortable and sociable nights tied up at Cediera, disguised as a tunnyman, with all mod cons and no charges at all. Everyone there thought the sun rose and set round about Silvio's fundament, which resulted in several late night drinking sessions pretending to be political discussions. It grieves me to see how correct my forecasts turned out to be...

Well my boat's 6 months/year mooring in Greece, including lift-out and wash-down is costing me €1285. That's even cheaper than the sort of prices one can achieve in Monfalcone - which IMHO has the best Co-op I've ever had the good fortune to experience.
As for Croatia - they started out as pirates and have continued the honourable tradition ever since. It was the freebooters of Dubrovnik who kick-started the Venetian Empire.

 

[macd]

When I go in my 33 footer, I intend to get past Spain as quickly as possible.

If marina costs bother you, it won't only be Spain you'll be dashing past, so why bother going at all? You can anchor, you know

Seriously, NW Spain, in particular, is a delight. You'll miss an awful lot (in Spain and elsewhere) if you're not happy to use the hook on a regular basis. Personally, I rarely use marinas except in the winter, and much prefer it that way. And FWIW, the Vila Nova price you mention is far from typical in mainland Spain.

 

[Tranona]

Hi
Pleas go back to the OP he's talking about the difference between a 42and 47 footer both will be equally expensive to maintain, however there will be a markedly better experience with more space

Read it again. That is not what he was asking. His original question was about 38-42ft or 43-50ft. There is a huge difference between these two size bands and within them.

There is no surprise that the most popular sizes for cruising couple (for want of a better all embracing term) is in the 10-12m range - that is +/- 38ft. This gives arguably the best compromise of space and cost. Below that living space reduces and above that both handling issues and costs rise rapidly, particularly if you operate in an area where berthing costs are high.

Whether a bigger boat gives a better experience depends entirely on the individual and how much they value the additional space..

 

[asteven221]

Great responses and all the opinions are valid and valuable to me. Tranona is right though for what I was trying get a feel for. If the running costs were linear then it would be an easy judgement call, however as we all know they are not linear. That's why I mentioned the bands of 38 to 42 feet and then 43 to 50ft.

In my experience the cost of repairs, buying accessories or replacing broken bits isn't that much different between a 38ft or 48ft (thinking 4 to 10 year old AWB, as that is what I am likely to buy). I do all my own repairs and of course bigger winches etc... cost more than smaller ones, but in the overall picture the difference in these costs isn't a great issue. However berthing and yard fees could be a huge issue as obviously the boat needs to go somewhere! As a very brief example I looked at my current home marine and they have the following breaks for hoist fees:-

Up to 9.9m - £13.30/m = £131.67 for 9.9m
10 to 13.5m - £21 /m = £210.00 for 10m and £283.50 for 13.5m
13.6m + £28.50 /m = £387.60

The key figure being an extra £104.10 for 1cm difference in 13.5 to 13.6 LOA! That's ex VAT so it would be more.

If that banding rational is applied to 365 days of berthing, then clearly there are huge cost considerations to be considered. I accept that there will be a lot of anchoring, but inevitably marina's will be involved to a lessor or greater extent.

I suppose I could sum up what I am trying to achieve. I am tying to get a feel for the LOA bandings most commonly referenced when charging in the Med marina establishments, for LOA between 38 and 48ft. Maybe it's an impossible ask!

 

[Tranona]

Yes it is as marinas price according to the supply and demand they have for what they offer. So only the general rule that bigger is more expensive is applicable. 12m is a point where most costs per metre jump because the space occupied, that is the number of berths in a given area falls because of the need for bigger aisles etc.

Your example of hoist charges reflects the fact that bigger boats need heavier equipment, but again that depends on the equipment a particular yard has available. Location is a key variable. All charges tend to be higher in the western Med so if you are spending most of your time in a marina berth, berthing costs will represent a high proportion of your overall costs. If, however you are in Greece or Turkey, mooring costs are a very small part of your overall costs. So, you could probably run a 47ft in Greece for less than a 38ft in the Balearics or SofF.

 

[asteven221]

Thanks Tranona - seems like I should be heading for Greece or Turkey then when the time comes!

 

[1bobt]

I am trying to get a feel for costs directly associated with the lenght of the boat. FWIW our thoughts are towards something along the lines of a Beneteau 473 or similar, however if the cost goes mad compared to say a Beneteau 423 then the 473 might not be worth it



Hello
This is only my opinion ,if you can afford it go for the largest you can manage,do not spoil your experience in being on a boat that you will soon find getting smaller the longer you are on it.ther are so many female partners that need the space .

Whatever you chose I hope you enjoy your experience and get to the eastern side of the Med if you are on a budget
Cheers bobt