Cost of Changing Boat - Depreciation - Cost to Change etc - Buy to last????????

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roblpm

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OK here goes:

How many years should one buy a boat for??

My criteria:

Bilge or Lifting Keel For Forth
Not Old and Manky - Want Wife and Kids to Go on it!
Low maintenance
Ability to Single Hand so I can take 10 & 12 year old kids out confidently on my own with no other adults.
Initially Just Overnight Trips in Forth
In a couple of years trips across North Sea and Back
In 5 years maybe move to West Coast

So from most to least expensive!!!

Sadler 290 - 65k - 2005ish - Seems to satisfy all of the above and should last me 10 years. Fast for a bilge keeler.
Hunter Channel 31/32/323 - 40k - 1996ish - 10 years older - havent looked at any yet and not many for sale
Moody 31 Mk 2 Bilge - 35k - 1990ish Should satisfy all of above but the ones I have looked at are manky!!
Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 29.2 Lifting - 2003 - Just saw an immaculate one! Not sure about north Sea and sure people will be rude about sailing ability
Hunter Ranger 265 - 22k - 1995ish Smaller - Not sure about the North Sea or West Coast?
Hunter Horizon 272 - 17.5k - Smaller/Older - Not sure about North Sea or West Coast?!

So my worries are: (and I worry a lot)

Buying something too small and deciding after 2 years to go bigger - having trouble selling - some of the Hunter ranger 265s I have been keeping an eye on seem to have been on sale of rover a year!
Buying an AWB and wishing I hadn't after being out in something rougher than a F3!
Buying something expensive (with the money for the house extension) and it being OTT for my needs.

So comments on the following would be welcome:

Resale - depreciation, demand etc
Pros and Cons of boats

Some of me thinks that if I bought a Sadler 290 for 60k (haggling!) and kept it 10 years I would be better off than buying a Hunter Ranger 265 and trading it in 3 years. So maybe I should go for something in the middle - but can find any good Moodys - too old - mybe I should look at the larger Hunters?!

Aargghhhh

Then again its fun thinking about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
My logic & criteria when I bought Flora was similar to yours. My main provisos were : must be big enough to stand up in, have a separate proper bed so that I didn't have to sit surrounded by bedding and then have to make a bed up every night and separate heads - and not to loose too much money if I didn't take to sailing and sold her.

The Westerly build quality was renowned so I settled on a Centaur - B layout for a first boat. Loads around, cheap and they hold their money. Small enough to single hand, bilge keel for creek crawling. There is not one day that I regretted my choice. Sailed downwind at 8 knots in a 7 from Dover to Eastbourne, has nice kind decks for getting around, we have lived on her for two weeks at a time (while house was rented out in summer), I can park & sail her on my own and just scrape in at under 8m so saving on marina fees. There is nothing manky about Flora - she is as smart as a pin.

I was lucky that I found an advert on the Westerly Owners club website and she is a cracker - and possibly a keeper! Just started a small upgrade programme, replacing winches, buying bits & pieces etc. Planning on crossing to Brittany in July with two crew and cant wait.

If I knew before-hand that I was a sailor, I would maybe have bought a bigger boat and planned to keep it for longer. But it takes a couple of years to get everything just as you want it so it is a bit of a nuisance to sell it just as it is 'perfect'. My neighbours have a smaller Westerly and have owned her from new - they have never bothered to change her as she does everything they want of her and she looks brand new.

Di
 
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roblpm said:
Buying an AWB and wishing I hadn't after being out in something rougher than a F3!
Click to expand...

If this will be your first boat ever and you are thinking like this, then good luck.

Sorry if I sound rude but if you have ever being out in anything rougher than a F3 with an AWB and the boat couldn't handle it, then probably you should improve your seamanship capabilities first. For the type of cruising you intend to do (not crossing oceans) an AWB is equally just fine.
 
roblpm said:
OK here goes:

How many years should one buy a boat for??

My criteria:

Bilge or Lifting Keel For Forth
Not Old and Manky - Want Wife and Kids to Go on it!
Low maintenance
Ability to Single Hand so I can take 10 & 12 year old kids out confidently on my own with no other adults.
Initially Just Overnight Trips in Forth
In a couple of years trips across North Sea and Back
In 5 years maybe move to West Coast

So from most to least expensive!!!

Sadler 290 - 65k - 2005ish - Seems to satisfy all of the above and should last me 10 years. Fast for a bilge keeler.
Hunter Channel 31/32/323 - 40k - 1996ish - 10 years older - havent looked at any yet and not many for sale
Moody 31 Mk 2 Bilge - 35k - 1990ish Should satisfy all of above but the ones I have looked at are manky!!
Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 29.2 Lifting - 2003 - Just saw an immaculate one! Not sure about north Sea and sure people will be rude about sailing ability
Hunter Ranger 265 - 22k - 1995ish Smaller - Not sure about the North Sea or West Coast?
Hunter Horizon 272 - 17.5k - Smaller/Older - Not sure about North Sea or West Coast?!

So my worries are: (and I worry a lot)

Buying something too small and deciding after 2 years to go bigger - having trouble selling - some of the Hunter ranger 265s I have been keeping an eye on seem to have been on sale of rover a year!
Buying an AWB and wishing I hadn't after being out in something rougher than a F3!
Buying something expensive (with the money for the house extension) and it being OTT for my needs.

So comments on the following would be welcome:

Resale - depreciation, demand etc
Pros and Cons of boats

Some of me thinks that if I bought a Sadler 290 for 60k (haggling!) and kept it 10 years I would be better off than buying a Hunter Ranger 265 and trading it in 3 years. So maybe I should go for something in the middle - but can find any good Moodys - too old - mybe I should look at the larger Hunters?!

Aargghhhh

Then again its fun thinking about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

If you want to have comfortable cruising for four, I think the boat sizes you are looking at are too small. There's no point in having a rebellion on your hands. I believe you should look in the 30-35' range where you can get good 2nd hand boats for the money you were looking at.

When I was looking for my first boat, I was looking at the same sizes as you. I spoke to the person I often chartered from and he told me to go to 30'. He was so convinced he let me have the Feeling 920 free for a week. He was right. It's a good compromise: budget, speed, comfort.
 
I reckon the Sadler 290 would be a safe choice. They are good boats from a good designer and are likely to be good sellers for some time, and more modern than some others on your list. A larger boat would have "longer legs" but be harder to maintain and might involve more expenses in other areas.
 
cmedsailor said:
If this will be your first boat ever and you are thinking like this, then good luck.

Sorry if I sound rude but if you have ever being out in anything rougher than a F3 with an AWB and the boat couldn't handle it, then probably you should improve your seamanship capabilities first. For the type of cruising you intend to do (not crossing oceans) an AWB is equally just fine.
Click to expand...

No offence taken!!

I have been in a F6-7 in both AWB and MAB but never in a small lift keel AWB! So maybe someone could comment on crossing the North Sea in a lift keel 29.2?
 
Sybarite said:
If you want to have comfortable cruising for four, I think the boat sizes you are looking at are too small. There's no point in having a rebellion on your hands. I believe you should look in the 30-35' range where you can get good 2nd hand boats for the money you were looking at.

When I was looking for my first boat, I was looking at the same sizes as you. I spoke to the person I often chartered from and he told me to go to 30'. He was so convinced he let me have the Feeling 920 free for a week. He was right. It's a good compromise: budget, speed, comfort.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that .................. might be 3!! Not sure wife is up for it. So 3 is fine, me and 2 kids or me and 2 mates!!

1 vote for Sadler 290

I should have set up a poll!!
 
roblpm said:
Thanks for that .................. might be 3!! Not sure wife is up for it. So 3 is fine, me and 2 kids or me and 2 mates!!

1 vote for Sadler 290

I should have set up a poll!!
Click to expand...

Yes it's a great boat but at £65K!!!! you've got to be kidding.
 
roblpm said:
Thanks for that .................. might be 3!! Not sure wife is up for it. So 3 is fine, me and 2 kids or me and 2 mates!!

1 vote for Sadler 290

I should have set up a poll!!
Click to expand...

Of the boats you've listed I would put the Sadler at the top of the list. It's a superb boat.
The size is fine for three or four people.
 
I cannot easily advise you, but my own thinking went something like this:

I bought my boat, a well-maintained 1982 Vancouver 27, seven years ago for £29k and spent about £4k on her (excluding basic maintenance) over the next four years, so total capital cost £33k.

At any stage I could have sold her for roughly that amount, maybe a tad less.

Then, two and a half years ago, I was faced with a decision: after a catastrophic oil leak, the engine needed a complete rebuild or replacement, new stern-gear etc, and she also needed new water tanks and plumbing, etc, etc.

I could have sold her as-was for maybe £28k and walked away, but I decided to fit a new engine and a feathering prop, re-wire, deal with the plumbing, etc, etc

Having additionally invested in an electric windlass, new anchor and chain, and a new sprayhood/cockpit-enclosure, she now stands me in for over £40k.

My guess is that I can probably sell her for £36k max, but I'm happy to have spent more than this as I'd committed to keeping her and have been enjoying sailing an upgraded boat.

She was the right boat for me in 2007, and remains the right boat for me in 2013. I've got her how I want her, she's a wonderful sailer and a very secure sea boat despite her small size, and don't intend to spend any more money aside from the usual maintenance.

I sail single or two-handed so I don't need a lot of internal space. I'll review my needs (crew, cruising grounds, affordability, etc) in three years' time, by which point she'll have cost me, ignoring the opportunity cost of capital, roughly £4k pa. If I sold her now or then, I'd take a hit on what I've had to spend over the years, but no-one ever recovers what they've spent on a boat.

Besides, that's not the point!

---

If you're new to boat ownership but have some experience and already know what kind of sailing you enjoy and where, then buy the right size/quality/design boat for the medium/long term.

Otherwise, buy a smaller starter boat of a well-known type, don't invest too much, and sell her when you're ready to move up.
 
Add a Hanse 311 to your list @ £50k
Best single hander for its size so good for the kids.
Brilliant heavy weather boat. Dry in a blow. Simple reefing, self taking jib
A lot faster than the older designs. Vancouvers moody' etc are a bit dated. Faster than lots of 35 footers & once you get the exhilaration you feel the benefit of the good windward performance & would appreciate being able to get where you want to go
Excellent headroom. Large heads- very important. Berths are long
6 berth. Saloon berths are straight & can be used for berths unlike some boats
Good galley & chart table is ok
Can get wheel or tiller versions
 
To be honest I would tend to think that you may want an older not too large bilge keeler for day sailing on the Forth, then plan to change to a fin keeler for any cross north sea trips or for the West / Clyde.

If you have not owned a boat before you will learn a lot from the first boat, then buy a long term keeper for the second one based on the lessons learnt.

Boats do depreciate a lot from new nowadays - as the expensive bits now are engines, electronics, sails etc (not the GRP and aluminium bits). But that's life. Much older boats flatten out in value - but you can get hit occasionally by bigger bills for things like engines (or teak decks).
So I would tend to get something medium sized / medium aged to take the knocks and wear of drying out - but budget to swap to the ideal boat as Boat 2.
 
Daydream believer said:
Add a Hanse 311 to your list @ £50k
Best single hander for its size so good for the kids.
Brilliant heavy weather boat. Dry in a blow. Simple reefing, self taking jib
A lot faster than the older designs. Vancouvers moody' etc are a bit dated. Faster than lots of 35 footers & once you get the exhilaration you feel the benefit of the good windward performance & would appreciate being able to get where you want to go
Excellent headroom. Large heads- very important. Berths are long
6 berth. Saloon berths are straight & can be used for berths unlike some boats
Good galley & chart table is ok
Can get wheel or tiller versions
Click to expand...

Hanse 311 - with bilge keels or centreplate? Don't think so.
 
dunedin said:
To be honest I would tend to think that you may want an older not too large bilge keeler for day sailing on the Forth, then plan to change to a fin keeler for any cross north sea trips or for the West / Clyde.

If you have not owned a boat before you will learn a lot from the first boat, then buy a long term keeper for the second one based on the lessons learnt.

Boats do depreciate a lot from new nowadays - as the expensive bits now are engines, electronics, sails etc (not the GRP and aluminium bits). But that's life. Much older boats flatten out in value - but you can get hit occasionally by bigger bills for things like engines (or teak decks).
So I would tend to get something medium sized / medium aged to take the knocks and wear of drying out - but budget to swap to the ideal boat as Boat 2.
Click to expand...

This was my feeling entirely. Then I started looking at these kind of boats and all the examples I have looked at have been manky! So spending what is still quite a substantial amount of money on something I am not enthused about is putting me off! I think people on here have described wanting a feeling of pride/joy when arriving or leaving their boat! After all it is much cheaper to go on other peoples boats or charter. So then I started thinking more long term!! Luckily I dont have the money until later in the year so I can spend months procrastinating!!
 
With 65k budget the world really is wide open for choice.
May I suggest that you look at the very best , poshest, newest you can and then work downwards and older and you may be surprised at how your thoughts change. Newer will score for liveability with family..
And: Have you looked at Sadler 34s, with bilge keels? Well built and at the lower depreciation end .
These will handle anything, a solid, well behaved family boat. The only downside is that the keels are steel so may occasionally require a rub down and re epoxy , but being bilge keels the access is good for this .

If you have access to inexpensive secure mooring, get the biggest boat!
All I o
 
Blueboatman said:
With 65k budget the world really is wide open for choice.
May I suggest that you look at the very best , poshest, newest you can and then work downwards and older and you may be surprised at how your thoughts change. Newer will score for liveability with family..
And: Have you looked at Sadler 34s, with bilge keels? Well built and at the lower depreciation end .
These will handle anything, a solid, well behaved family boat. The only downside is that the keels are steel so may occasionally require a rub down and re epoxy , but being bilge keels the access is good for this .

If you have access to inexpensive secure mooring, get the biggest boat!
All I o
Click to expand...

Hmmm I think 65k was my budget after a few glasses of wine!! Realistically less would be good! It was just I wasnt that enthusiastic about the sub 20k options!
 
In vino veritas perhaps?
Build the ' value added' house extension, be silly not to.

And get a seal 26 on a trailer that you can keep at home , cheap see? Or a wee plastic gaffer.
Worry about the bigger boat, west coast and North Sea family crossings later .
Buying well, you won't lose on depreciation nor storage.

There!
 
Blueboatman said:
In vino veritas perhaps?
Build the ' value added' house extension, be silly not to.

And get a seal 26 on a trailer that you can keep at home , cheap see? Or a wee plastic gaffer.
Worry about the bigger boat, west coast and North Sea family crossings later .
Buying well, you won't lose on depreciation nor storage.

There!
Click to expand...

But i might cop it in the interim. I dont think on my death bed i am going to think "I wish I had spent more on my house extension"!!

You are talking perfect sense which is why I am not going to do that!!
 
We bought a Beneteau Oceanis 311 with a lifting keel about 15 years ago. I think they continued making them for many years after this.

We used the boat in and around the Solent. We also crossed the Channel several times, and went down to Devon/Cornwall a couple of times.

The boat was fine for two adults and two 7-8 year olds. Only ever caught out in max 25-30 knots max a few times and the crew were more unhappy than the boat. However, we managed, without drama, or danger.

The boat was about £60-65k new, and we sold after a couple of years for about £45k. I believe that they are now about £30k second-hand. I can't see them dropping any further significant amount. At about 5-6 years, I think most well maintained yachts have lost most of whatever depreciation that they are likely to suffer.

People have their own views about such AWBs but we were out sailing many days when the hardy sailors were tucked up polishing their shiny bits. And on the days that we felt that it may be too rough for us, not much else that was privately owned and run, moved.

So, think widely, and view as many boats as you can. Ideally look for a boat that has been loved because fixing previous negligence can be a bit open ended.

And if you buy a boat that is ideal for you and your family (size, drying out, separate bedrooms, easily handled, known brand etc), at the right price, in good nick, then there will probably be a market for it if it doesn't suit.

Cheers

Garold
 
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