Cost of bringing all line back to the cockpit?

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FL390

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I am hoping to offer on a boat (typical 1970s 26 footer) that in most respects is exactly what I am looking for, with the important bits well looked after. However it has slab reefing with all lines at the mast. There are no clutches or winches on the coach roof.

I will be exclusively single handed and whilst there are workarounds bringing all lines back to the cockpit is a requirement for me. Could anyone please give me an idea of what costs I might be looking at to have this done? Would a rigger do all the work including winch install etc?

Thanks for any advice.
 
It all depends on the construction of your coach roof, as (a) the structure you bolt your clutches to needs to be able to handle the forces and (b) needs not to be compressible by the through-deck bolts you’re going to use.

Any good yard will sort you out. Ask advice with your boat present. Best, find an experienced sole trader recommended by someone who’s had work done.

It’s not clear whether you would need a winch on the coach roof just for slab reefing on your boat. If you use 2:1 thin (preferably dyneema) lines through low friction rings at the 4 or 6 reefing eyes, you will certainly be able to haul the luff down hard by hand and I should imagine in s 26’er you could also secure the leaches tight by hand so long as main and vang are slack. Winches introduce both much more compression of the deck, more torsion and more lateral (fore-and-aft in this case) force so you may need some fibreglass reinforcement within the coach roof.

Sounds worthwhile to do some mods on a boat that you’re otherwise happy with.
 
A rigger will do whatever rigging work you pay him to do. Make sure you agree the price first.

Assuming that you have single line or slab reefing and already have the winch on your coachroof, running new ropes, adding new turning blocks, deck organisers and cam cleats, plus the labour at GBP >50.00 per hour, I'm fairly sure you're looking at spending over GBP 1000.00. As above, I'd recommend you use Dyneema ropes.

For many years I sailed similarly sized boats that didn't have lines led back to the cockpit. It didn't change the world when I did have them nor when I didn't have them any more.

Enjoy your sailing.
 
Singlehanded, there is much to be said for being able to work at the mast.
Shaking out a reef or hoisting the main often needs a bit of manual intervention to sort the slides or bolt rope or something.

I've had ex-race boats where most things are led back, great when you've got a pitgirl to tend the winches and clutches, not actually that handy either 2-up with no autopilot, or s/h.

If you are looking at 2 reefs, two lines each, halyards, kicker, it's actually quite a lot of work and some hours of careful thought might be needed to get it right.
 
If you pay a boatyard or rigger to do the job properly it could very easily come to well over £1,000. If it means taking down headlinings inside the saloon, reinforcing and sealing any balsa cores, and reinstating, a boatyard bill could end up even higher. If it's done badly (eg hardware just screwed into the deck) it could cause serious problems later.

I grew up with working on the foredeck and at the mast even while (frequently) singlehanded, and so am not worried by it.

On my present modern boat with all lines led back to the cockpit the extra friction and amount of string in the cockpit are sometimes irritating. I envy those whose boat designers have built in good stowage for large coils of reefing lines and halyards, but few have.

It's your choice, but as I assume the boat has been sailing around for 20, 30, or 40 years as she is, you might try using her as is for a few weeks first.
 
Wansworth said:
And you have the cockpit looking like a snakes nest!
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................. It does not have to. There is an option of 26 different control lines in my cockpit. Obviously they are not all used at once, but I never get them tangled & there would be no reason to.. One just coils the tails of halyards & reefing lines as one goes.( still have to be coiled if at the mast) Simple seamanship really.
 
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lw395 said:
Singlehanded, there is much to be said for being able to work at the mast. .
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............. Single handed there is a lot to be said for NOT working at the mast. I can never understand why , in a blow, someone would want to wander about the deck in a somewhat precarious state when virtually all operations can be done from the cockpit. When sailing I consider that , for me at least, the most dangerous operation is getting the sails down , fenders & lines rigged after a long sail just prior to entering harbour. I regularly have to reef in windy weather & to go on deck to do that seems just adding to the danger.-------- still to each his own & I think that the OP is right to at least consider changing to cockpit controls
 
The cost is very dependent on your own ability at DIY. On my boat, I've a winch and 8 clutches/cleats on the coachroof, at the cockpit. With these I can fully douse and raise my genoa, I can fully raise, lower and reef my mainsail, having made lazyjacks and having a 2 rope reefing on 2nd reef, a single on 1st reef. My sails are a hanked on genoa, and sliders on the main. I extended the mast groove down to accomodate all of the sliders in order that they''re permanently slotted in place. The idea of going to the mast to reef when one needs to in a blow, possibly without a tiller pilot, opposed to being able to accomplish it from the cockpit doesn't make sense, and fails the onboard risk assessment with me. If you're able to do the work yourself, it's better; if you can't, then do get a trusted tradesman, or skilled friend to do it. It is possible to sail without these things done of course, and as stated above, do sail her 1st to gain a better idea of what you want and need.
Bear in mind also that there are a great many ways of doing it right, very few ways that are absolutely wrong.
 
Daydream believer said:
............. Single handed there is a lot to be said for NOT working at the mast. I can never understand why , in a blow, someone would want to wander about the deck in a somewhat precarious state when virtually all operations can be done from the cockpit. When sailing I consider that , for me at least, the most dangerous operation is getting the sails down , fenders & lines rigged after a long sail just prior to entering harbour. I regularly have to reef in windy weather & to go on deck to do that seems just adding to the danger.-------- still to each his own & I think that the OP is right to at least consider changing to cockpit controls
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It's the 'virtually all' which is key to that statement.
So many boats I've been on, lots of lines led back, but so often either you can never do the whole job from the cockpit (luff has to be fed into luff groove, there's one line not led back..) or stuff tangles and you're left having to go to the mast anyway, but then the controls are out of reach. You end up moving from cockpit to mast and back multiple times instead of once.
Even a simple basic thing like a slack main halyard going around the spreader can be comedy if there's no way to cleat it at the mast.
If a led-back system is not excellent, it can be a menace.
I've seen a lot of systems that just don't work singlehanded, I would be very wary of thinking you can just write a cheque and it'll all come out right.
 
To be honest the cost of this improvement will involve new running rigging, blocks at the base of the mast, probably turning blocks on the deck, cluthes and winches. This will cost for parts alone about £1500 to £2000 if you do it yourself. Yes it is possible, but my advice would be to find another boat with the halyards already led aft.
 
lw395 said:
I've seen a lot of systems that just don't work singlehanded, I would be very wary of thinking you can just write a cheque and it'll all come out right.
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There is nothing magic about getting it right. Plenty of good examples around on other boats.

However, I agree with using the boat first as is so you get a feel for it and then work out the best way of laying it out for that particular boat. The big barrier is cost. If you buy all new using, for example all Barton gear including 2 winches, 2 organisers, 2 clutches, 6 or so blocks and slab reefing kit you are looking at nearly £1k in hardware and then new ropes.

Obviously ways of reducing cost by using cam cleats and not having winches, or using secondhand parts.
 
Concerto said:
To be honest the cost of this improvement will involve new running rigging, blocks at the base of the mast, probably turning blocks on the deck, cluthes and winches. This will cost for parts alone about £1500 to £2000 if you do it yourself. Yes it is possible, but my advice would be to find another boat with the halyards already led aft.
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DIY can be done for far less if the winches can be can be moved from the mast to the coachroof rather than having to buy new. I converted this and the previous boat to lines led aft and the main costs were the clutches and deck organisers. New lines needed and back to back blocks in the boom. Impossible to give accurate costs for OP without knowing just what is entailed on a particular boat.
 
lw395 said:
Even a simple basic thing like a slack main halyard going around the spreader can be comedy if there's no way to cleat it at the mast. If a led-back system is not excellent, it can be a menace. I've seen a lot of systems that just don't work singlehanded, I would be very wary of thinking you can just write a cheque and it'll all come out right.
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You are dead right ,of course. However, It is not rocket science, but I must admit that when I refurbished my last boat, a Stella, I thought I had it right. Then I saw one set up by Rig Magic!!!!( unfortunately no longer trading) So I would suggest that if the OP does not feel confident, then by all means involve the services of a good rigger & ask around who is the best at this. But, be aware that some people's idea of good may actually be second rate; they really do not know what is " really good". That was the mistake I made when I set up my Stella. So have a look at other set ups & if possible have a little play & try them out. Most people are more than happy to show you how their boat is set up & you can make your own assessment afterwards. I have trimmed & altered my system many times over the 15 years to get it working satisfactorily. But I bet that if Rig Magic had their hands on it it would be better still.
 
I will say at the outset that I like to work at the mast, and I generally have had boats where there is no other option, but I tend to singlehand or sail short handed on bigger, heavier boats than the boat that the OP is looking at. Probably my choice of boat is influenced by wanting a stable platform.

Now to come to the point:

Friction.

Turning everything through another right angle increases the friction losses by rather a lot, in my experience, so the OP may find himself wanting to fit bigger winches than he had on the mast, and perhaps adding a reefing winch where there was none before, in order to stay in the same place, so to speak. The choice of blocks also comes into this - bigger is better, and roller bearing is a whole lot better!
 
I think the core issue is that singlehanding is not trivial. Leading a few lines back is only an aid, not a magic bullet.
On your own, you still have to sail very much within your abilities. You need a high level of faith in the boat's systems and you need to be good at handling them, sorting problems and avoiding problems.
Most people take to singlehanding after some years of ironing out all the problems while sailing with a crew.
I don't care where the controls are, so much as whether they work well.
There are limits, I don't have much time for so-called cruising yachts where I can't adjust both the main and genoa from the helm.

Personally I don't do a lot of singlehanded on yachts, I don't rate it. But I do sail two-up a lot without using the autopilot much.
 
I have single handed, on and off, all my sailing life.

The most useful single thing is a slack length of shock cord, across the cockpit or after deck, which you can loop once or twice round the tiller or a spoke of the wheel. This gives enough time to get forward and back again and costs pennies. Works from 19ft to 55 ft LOA, no experience either side of that. You get longer on the bigger boat, but of course you have further to go...
 
Minn said:
I have single handed, on and off, all my sailing life.

The most useful single thing is a slack length of shock cord, across the cockpit or after deck, which you can loop once or twice round the tiller or a spoke of the wheel. This gives enough time to get forward and back again and costs pennies. Works from 19ft to 55 ft LOA, no experience either side of that. You get longer on the bigger boat, but of course you have further to go...
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A good autopilot is even better. Press the button and off you go forward.

However, there are lots of ways of making a boat that was either built before easy handling was an issue or for big crews, more suitable for single handing. But better if you start from scratch with designing and building a boat where easy handling is a key feature. That is where most modern boats win hands down, using modern technology and good ergonomic design.

Many of the techniques can be retrofitted or adapted to older designs, but of course at a cost.
 
Minn said:
....

The most useful single thing is a slack length of shock cord, across the cockpit or after deck, which you can loop once or twice round the tiller or a spoke of the wheel. This gives enough time to get forward and back again and costs pennies. Works from 19ft to 55 ft LOA, no experience either side of that. You get longer on the bigger boat, but of course you have further to go...
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I'd second that.
It's the same for sailing short handed, if you want to do something while the crew is off-watch, cooking or whatever.
Autopilots are more reliable these days, but the old ways still work....
 
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