Corrosion - Towergate Insurance

GrahamM376

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Following comments on this thread - http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread...nsurance-claim - and others on this forum, I have been having correspondence over the last couple of weeks with a not too helpful member of staff at Towergate trying to resolve the "Loss or Damage due to Corrosion" issue.

Having finally lost patience this morning, I sent a formal complaint letter and, in under an hour, was telephoned by their managing director. We had a friendly discussion and I was invited to submit some suggestions about wording. Following this, he had discussions with their underwriters and I have just received the following email, which satisfies me enough to stay with them:-



Graham

Below is a summary of Towergate’s official position on corrosion related problems. This statement has been signed off by the senior underwriter at RSA, our lead insurer.

Hopefully it clarifies our position until we can reword our policy to more accurately reflect our intentions of protecting the responsible owner.

Firstly it is always the intention of Towergate to treat all its customers fairly.

If an insured regularly maintains his craft and has taken reasonable precautions to regularly inspect areas of the craft that would be susceptible to corrosive action then:

· Towergate would not avoid claims that occurred as a result of the failure of a part due to corrosion that the owner of the vessel could not have reasonably been aware of.

· Under the current wording Towergate has paid claims for damage that has occurred as a result faults including corrosion that the policyholder could not have known about.

· Also under the current wording Towergate has paid claims for rigging failures due to crevice corrosion that could not have reasonable been detected during normal inspection.

However if an owner is aware of a defect in his craft (including defects due to corrosion) and takes little or no remedial action, or takes no action to inspect /regularly maintain the craft to prevent such an event occurring, I hope you will agree it would be unreasonable to expect Insurers to pay for damage that could have reasonably been avoided had some very basic care and due diligence been applied to protect the craft.

We are looking at ways we could re-define “Corrosion” that could embrace the sentiments above but this is proving very tricky to do – hence the interpretation. Many other Yacht Insurers in our market also exclude “Corrosion” in some form, as we do. This has been brought about by many poor experiences across the industry on primarily smaller craft that are not regularly maintained /inspected and have produced large losses that unfortunately the diligent owners eventually end up paying for through increased premiums to fund such avoidable losses.

We are happy for you to reproduce any of the above on any of the discussion groups. In the meantime, thank you for your suggestions which we will certainly take on board when looking at the revised wording.

Kind regards

Nigel
 
Graham
That's really interesting. Would you be able please to confirm Nigel's full name and the precise name of the tower gate entity he is writing in behalf of. Ok. On you my email in case you'd prefer just to send on the email

Many thanks
 
I've emailed you with some info but, for the benefit of others, this is his title -

Nigel Mills FCII |Chartered Insurance Broker | Managing Director

Towergate Insurance Marine |New Zealand House, 160-162 Abbey Foregate, Shrewsbury, SY2 6AL
 
Great, and many thanks. Need now to correspond with towergate privately but will report back here on the outcome ( whatever it is) in a few weeks I guess. It would be great if towergate could redeem themselves and then everyone can get back to renewing their insurance with them!

Ill definitely report back, and hopefully add towergate to my ( IMHO) "good guys" list...
 
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Although I am not accustomed to naming & shaming companies that I feel have underperformed, having just read the hopefully constructive response received from Towergate I wondered if anyone might be interested to hear about the level of assistance provided by my own insurers, Bluefin/Bishop Skinner.
Having spoken to their Director, Bill Southgate, in mid November about the level of cover provided, I subsequently sent an email on the 19th.November in which I asked for clarification of 3 particular clauses, one of which was to do with the corrosion issue. In essence, their policy which is through AIG does not cover Insured Perils due to failure of a corroded part. Additionally, there was also a terrorism clause that was so ambiguous that had the boat been damaged by even an individual churchgoer then it could have invalidated any claim. Anyway, as by the 22nd.November I still had not received any reply, I thought I would give him another call to see if he had any answers. Apparently not, as his response was that because he had been very busy he thought he'd "thrown it to one of the others in the office to deal with but couldn't remember if he had or not." He therefore suggested I send him the email again, which I did immediately on the 22nd.
So, here we are more than three weeks later on the 14th.December and, guess what, still no reply.
I really do not take any pleasure from this but, if this is the way they wish to treat customers, especially long standing ones who are even prepared to take their initial snub on the chin, I can't help thinking that they should be in some other line of business where rudeness and lack of support has now unfortunately become the norm such as banking, politics or whatever.
 
Although I am not accustomed to naming & shaming companies that I feel have underperformed, having just read the hopefully constructive response received from Towergate I wondered if anyone might be interested to hear about the level of assistance provided by my own insurers, Bluefin/Bishop Skinner.
Having spoken to their Director, Bill Southgate, in mid November about the level of cover provided, I subsequently sent an email on the 19th.November in which I asked for clarification of 3 particular clauses, one of which was to do with the corrosion issue. In essence, their policy which is through AIG does not cover Insured Perils due to failure of a corroded part. Additionally, there was also a terrorism clause that was so ambiguous that had the boat been damaged by even an individual churchgoer then it could have invalidated any claim. Anyway, as by the 22nd.November I still had not received any reply, I thought I would give him another call to see if he had any answers. Apparently not, as his response was that because he had been very busy he thought he'd "thrown it to one of the others in the office to deal with but couldn't remember if he had or not." He therefore suggested I send him the email again, which I did immediately on the 22nd.
So, here we are more than three weeks later on the 14th.December and, guess what, still no reply.
I really do not take any pleasure from this but, if this is the way they wish to treat customers, especially long standing ones who are even prepared to take their initial snub on the chin, I can't help thinking that they should be in some other line of business where rudeness and lack of support has now unfortunately become the norm such as banking, politics or whatever.

I would do what the OP did and state to Bluefin/Bishop Skinner that you wish to make a formal complaint. Bluefin/Bishop Skinner are obliged to comply with the TCF regulations, you can take your pick over the one that they are not adhering to...

http://www.fca.org.uk/firms/being-regulated/meeting-your-obligations/fair-treatment-of-customers

Pete
 
I would do what the OP did and state to Bluefin/Bishop Skinner that you wish to make a formal complaint. Bluefin/Bishop Skinner are obliged to comply with the TCF regulations, you can take your pick over the one that they are not adhering to...

http://www.fca.org.uk/firms/being-regulated/meeting-your-obligations/fair-treatment-of-customers

Pete

Thanks for your helpful input. Maybe at one time I might have bothered but now I rather think the best way of dealing with something like this is to simply vote with my feet by switching to another insurer which, incidentally, is going to save me a few hundred quid, and maybe a few potential customers might also just read this and decide to go elsewhere. Callous by my usual standards but , to be honest, having spent my working lifetime doing my best for my customers, I think I'm beginning to believe that **** service deserves just as much **** throwing back at it.
 
Can I play devils advocate? During my telephone conversation with Nigel Mills at Towergate, he made some points which I can't disagree with so understand underwriters reluctance to just cover "corrosion", without strict definitions. He cited cases (which I guess most of us have seen) where boats have been more or less dumped in marinas, not hauled out or inspected yet, when they sink through perhaps galvanic/electrolytic corrosion or, because the bilge pump battery was flat after months of pumping water from a leaking stern gland, owners expect insurers to pay out. Unused canal boats were also cited.

I remember a case on another forum where an owner thought he had a holding tank but could anyone tell him where to look as he couldn't find it. Also, did anyone know where his galley sink seacock is located. When I suggested he talk to the previous owner, assuming he had just bought it, he replied that he'd had the boat for 7 years! Maybe insurers do have to be cautious (within reason) and of course claims increase all our premiums.
 
I'm still progressing this with Towergate and following more points I raised, have just received the following interim reply from their MD. Whilst spelling out a couple of points it raises another question. Bearing in mind that most boat owners are maintenance "amateurs" (no formal marine engineering qualifications) rather than tradesmen, who qualifies as - a person of competent skill using ordinary care? I'll bounce this back to them in the New Year.

Hi Graham

As you may appreciate the onset of the Christmas holidays has meant that it has been difficult to speak to the various people involved in changes to the policy wording, which need to be signed off by legal departments etc.

However I think is important not to single out RSA as most of the leading yacht insurers include in their policy wordings some kind of exclusion for damage to items by gradual deterioration / corrosion, although this is expressed in different ways.

In the mean time, our recent statement of intent applies to all of our policyholders, whenever they took out their policy.

We hope in the New Year to clarify our position to reflect the following:

1. It is not our intention to pay for the replacement of items / parts that have become unserviceable or broken because of gradual deterioration / corrosion.

2. It is our intention to pay claims which have resulted from a latent defect, including corrosion which cannot be discovered by a person of competent skill using ordinary care.

We wish to achieve a balance in providing cover for responsible owners who take care to maintain their craft, without them being penalised by increased premiums caused by claims from policy holders that allow their craft to deteriorate and potentially sink due to lack of maintenance and neglect. It is noted that one insurer imposes excludes sinking if the craft has been left unattended or un-inspected for 28 days.

Kind regards and Christmas greetings
 
Graham, this wording seems quite sensible to me. I guess any individual's competence is subject to clarification, as there have been some horror stories on here where so called professional tradesmen have done a really shoddy job. I personally experienced this myself last year.
 
Graham, this wording seems quite sensible to me. I guess any individual's competence is subject to clarification, as there have been some horror stories on here where so called professional tradesmen have done a really shoddy job. I personally experienced this myself last year.

Problem is, the interpretation isn't down to you or me. There are some pretty *rap so-called tradesmen out there and some excellent amateurs. There are concientious boat owners who have done their own maintenance for years and know every detail of their boat and those who have always paid someone else even to change the oil. Some of course do that due to time constraints or can earn more money working but there are those who we've all met, who don't know how to do even very simple jobs.

We live in a new era where a paper qualification often outweighs years of practical experience and I just hope insurers don't go down that route. Hopefully, I'll get more info after the Christmas break as they seem to be open to suggestion in that they've now moved away from the no cover for "Loss or Damage Due to Corrosion" to "corrosion is covered under some circumstances".
 
Problem is, the interpretation isn't down to you or me. There are some pretty *rap so-called tradesmen out there and some excellent amateurs. There are concientious boat owners who have done their own maintenance for years and know every detail of their boat and those who have always paid someone else even to change the oil. Some of course do that due to time constraints or can earn more money working but there are those who we've all met, who don't know how to do even very simple jobs.

We live in a new era where a paper qualification often outweighs years of practical experience and I just hope insurers don't go down that route. Hopefully, I'll get more info after the Christmas break as they seem to be open to suggestion in that they've now moved away from the no cover for "Loss or Damage Due to Corrosion" to "corrosion is covered under some circumstances".
If you do much of your own maintenance, as I do, and keep a log of what you do, I think you will be covered. A surveyor of any competence will see the evidence of your work.
 
If you do much of your own maintenance, as I do, and keep a log of what you do, I think you will be covered. A surveyor of any competence will see the evidence of your work.

Good idea thanks. I've only noted oil & filter change hours up to now in the sailing log, trusting the rest to memory. I will start a maintenance log from now.
 
Have made some more progress with Towergate. Following my finding of a corroded through hull, as outlined in post 25 of this thread http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread...-checked/page3
I wrote to Towergate asking if they would have paid out if the boat sank through this defect. Prompt reply this morning from their MD.

Hi Graham

Happy New year to you.

I am back from the London Boat Show where I had the chance to discuss the corrosion issue with various company underwriters.

As stated before, I wish to clarify our intentions relating to claims involving corrosion to exclude the replacement of parts damaged by corrosion but include resultant consequences, unless the loss has resulted from “gross neglect” of the craft.

We are currently working on an acceptable and clear wording.

In your own case, you give a classic example of an otherwise well maintained craft sinking as a result of a defect that was not reasonably detectable by the average owner. There is no doubt whatsoever that any resultant claim would have been fully covered.

I will let you know as soon as we get a draft wording and will welcome your input together with other members of the forum.

Kind regards

Nigel Mills FCII |Chartered Insurance Broker | Managing Director

It's now obvious they have moved away from the blanket exclusion - Loss or Damage due to Corrosion and I will publish their proposed new wording for comment, once received.
 
I'm currently with Towergate and my renewal comes up in 4 weeks so I am watching with baited breath.
Previously I had decided not to use them again due to being 'enlightened' by discussions on here. That could now change.
I am usually pretty cynical when companies say "They are looking in to it." This however is looking quite promising.
 
Have made some more progress with Towergate. Following my finding of a corroded through hull, as outlined in post 25 of this thread http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread...-checked/page3
I wrote to Towergate asking if they would have paid out if the boat sank through this defect. Prompt reply this morning from their MD.

Hi Graham

Happy New year to you.

I am back from the London Boat Show where I had the chance to discuss the corrosion issue with various company underwriters.

As stated before, I wish to clarify our intentions relating to claims involving corrosion to exclude the replacement of parts damaged by corrosion but include resultant consequences, unless the loss has resulted from “gross neglect” of the craft.

We are currently working on an acceptable and clear wording.

In your own case, you give a classic example of an otherwise well maintained craft sinking as a result of a defect that was not reasonably detectable by the average owner. There is no doubt whatsoever that any resultant claim would have been fully covered.

I will let you know as soon as we get a draft wording and will welcome your input together with other members of the forum.

Kind regards

Nigel Mills FCII |Chartered Insurance Broker | Managing Director

It's now obvious they have moved away from the blanket exclusion - Loss or Damage due to Corrosion and I will publish their proposed new wording for comment, once received.

Sounds like an extremely good attitude to me!
 
After several months of negotiations, the new policy wording arrived today from Towergate and I would appreciate comments - is it an improvement or am I missing loopholes? Remember, it affects your policy as well if you're insured with Towergate.

The starting point:-

Your insurers will not pay for:
- loss or damage caused by wear and tear;
- loss or damage caused by corrosion;
- loss of value because of age and use;
- loss of value of your boat after it has been repaired;
- the cost of repairing or replacing any part that is lost or damaged because it was faulty;
- the cost of putting right any fault caused by somebody else’s mistake or if they do not finish
any repair work or alterations;
- any damage that is not repaired as well as a total loss in any period of insurance;
- scratching, denting or bruising while your boat is being transported;
- sails split by the wind or blown away while they are set, unless the spars that they are
attached to are damaged at the same time;

I received this this morning:-

Graham

I have attached the revised section of our policy wording which will replace the existing wording for all new and existing policyholders.

The intention is to clarify our position that losses due to corrosion, or any form of gradual deterioration, that could not have been discovered by normal inspection / maintenance would be covered by our insurance policy.

There is a new definition of Gradual Deterioration which is linked to the revised wording (changes in red)

We think this will give protection to responsible owners without opening insurers to claims where the principle cause of the loss is the absence of maintenance.

We are in the process of reprinting our documentation but I can confirm that any new claim received would be viewed in the light of the new wording.

Kind regards

Nigel Mills FCII|Chartered Insurance Broker | Managing Director




Gradual Deterioration

The continuous degradation of Your Boat caused by, wear and tear, rust, rot, oxidation, corrosion, electrolytic or galvanic action, wasting or weathering.


We will not pay for:

Loss or damage caused by:

1.3.7.1 Gradual deterioration, unless the Gradual deterioration could not have been identified by routine inspection and /or prevented by, servicing, maintenance or recommended replacement in accordance with engineers, surveyors or manufacturers advice.;

1.3.7.2 osmosis;

1.3.7.3 Insects, marine borers, barnacles, marine growth, fungi or molluscs;

1.3.7.4 scratching, denting or bruising while Your boat is being transported;

1.3.7.5 sails split by the wind or blown away while hoisted or unfurled, unless the spars that they are attached to are damaged at the same time.


Graham.
 
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