copy of RCD (CE) certificate and proof of VAT paid

[laser001]

Hi all,

I'm a joint owner of a motorboat which is UK registered but kept in storage and used on a French fresh water lake. We have a very keen buyer in France but are coming up against some big problems on paperwork. The craft is a 2005 Mastercraft (a US boat) with CE marking in the cabin. The buyer is understandably asking for three things: 1) proof of registration; 2) copy of the original invoice showing VAT has been paid; and 3) copy of the Declaration of Conformity. The agreed sales price is so not the biggest sale but of an amount that probably means a lot to most people.

The problem we have is that when we purchased the craft in the UK (2nd hand in a private sale in 2012) we didn't receive the CE cert or the original invoice - as is quite often the case in UK sales. With hindsight we have been somewhat naive in not asking for these docs when we purchased the craft.

Now we have gone back to the the UK Mastercraft dealership but unfortunately they were established in 2007 and our boat was supplied by the previous dealership. We have contacted that previous dealership but they are unable to provide a copy invoice and are still looking into a copy of the CE cert. I have read up on this forum and can see the VAT proof of payment is a legitimate question, especially when exporting.

My question to the forum is, I doubt this is a unique circumstance - and if so, how have people progressed sales in the past? For example is there a way to get a copy of the RCD (CE) certificate for our boat type? Is there a way a declaration can be made for a missing invoice (especially given it's 12 years old).

Thanks for any thoughts in advance.

 

[Momac]

There should be a CE plate fitted to the boat. This should be sufficient evidence.

As for the bill of sale - could you contact the previous owner who may still have it ?

 

[laser001]

Hi, thanks @MartynG I was assuming there was also a formal paper Declaration of Conformity that should have accompanied the vessel? We have tried to contact the previous owner but unfortunately he isn't returning our emails, possibly having changed email (we did purchase the boat in 2012). I have also written to the RYA RCD guidance email to see if they can offer any assistance. I'm surprised there isn't a central body in the UK that holds records of all award RCD certs for UK craft.

Thinking back to when I purchased a new jet ski a few years ago, I don't believe I received any special paperwork there relating to RCD / CE, again just the sticker on the hull.

 

[rafiki_]

The CofC should be available from Mastercraft in the US if they are still trading? You might try the RYA of British Marine for advice on proof of VAT.

 

[Tranona]

For the Declaration of Conformity it depends on where the certification was done. It may have been at the factory in which case they will be able to supply a copy if you quote the HIN of your boat. However it is quite possible that the certification was done in the UK by the dealer as often there are only a few minor things to change from the US spec.

For the VAT evidence I am afraid you are stuck with what you have, or don't have. The only record that ties the VAT to your boat is the original dealer's invoice. There is no record anywhere else. This is unlike most other states in the EU where the boat has to be registered and you have to produce evidence of VAT to register. In the UK there is no legal requirement to register and even the optional register we do have does not record VAT. You can use your boat in France with the SSR as identifying the boat as British, but it records nothing else.

Expect you will find the RYA response (and HMRC) along the lines of first any VAT issue are the responsibility of HMRC as you bought the boat in the UK and second as you bought the boat from a private person, as evidenced by your Bill of Sale, no VAT is due. All perfectly logical and a true reflection of the legal position, but difficult for the French to accept as their system is different from ours!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

First the prospective buyer is quite within his rights to ask for this documentation. I would do the same

Lets start with the CE certificate. The CE plate affixed to the boat should state a hull number. Do you have any other kind of document such as the bill of sale or invoice to you which states the hull number? If so your buyer might accept that as proof that the boat is CE certified. If not you are going to have to find a copy of the CE certificate. IMHO it is unlikely that Mastercraft self certified the boat in the USA and more likely that it was certified by the dealer who first imported it into the UK in which case he likely used a certifying company to do it. One of the big players in the boat certifying market is CE Proof http://www.ceproof.com/. Its a long shot but they have to be worth a call to see whether they have a record of certifying this boat and if not they might be able to tell you who could have done

With regard to VAT almost certainly the original importing dealer would have had to pay VAT on importing the boat into the UK in which case HMRC may have a record of that and any kind of document from HMRC confirming VAT was paid on importation should be enough for your buyer to prove that EU VAT was paid. Of course it would be far better if you could get a copy of the original invoice to the first buyer showing VAT so you have to make more of an effort to find him. I presume you have an idea where he lives as you bought the boat from him? Even if he only has a photocopy of the invoice it could be notarised by a lawyor as being a true copy of the original. You also have to keep banging away at the original dealer too. My guess is that they're not too interested in helping you because there's nothing in it for them. Go and visit them if you can; even offer them a fee for finding the original invoice and CE cert

Even if your sale falls through this time a subsequent buyer may ask for these documents so time spent trying to find them now will always be worthwile. It might be worth having a word with some marine lawyors like Ward & McKenzie http://www.ward-mckenzie.co.uk/about-ward-and-mckenzie-superyacht-consulting/. They helped me many years ago when I was in a similar situation to you

 

[jfm]

I'm in full agreement with Tranona #5 above, especially his last sentence. Unfortunate fact is that the boat market has collectively allowed itself to become obsessed with the original purchase invoice, believing incorrectly that that proves the boat is VAT paid. There is no logic to it, but the fact is that the market just wants it. Worse still, the boat market thinks that if the boat cannot be (supposedly) proven VAT paid by the original invoice, the second hand buyer is somehow at material risk of a tax demand, which is absurd but the market believes it. So I'm afraid you have this problem unless you can produce the purchase invoice, which you wont be able to it seems. You'll therefore have to agree a price chip most likely. Be clear: no-one from HMRC or RYA, etc, will get you out of where you are, which is in price chip territory

RCD - the buyer is being a bit painful if the sticker is attached. But you'll have to deal with it or price chip.

@Deleted User #6, I don't agree a few comments. The hull number will be moulded into the transom; you don't need a document. HMRC will not dig out a record of VAT paid by an importing dealer (and it wont have been paid; it will merely have been accounted for as an in and an out). Even if that import VAT could be evidenced, it ought to be pretty meaningless in terms of proving VAT paid status as the market understands it because that dealer could have sold to a non UK buyer and not charged UK VAT, etc (though I accept that the putative buyer might fall for it!). Finally, neither a lawyer nor anyone else can (unless dodgy!) certify a photocopy as true, unless he/she also has or has had in his/her hand the original. In any case, the cost of a lawyer will be out of all monetary proportion to the problem.

 

[MapisM]

the boat market thinks that if the boat cannot be (supposedly) proven VAT paid by the original invoice, the second hand buyer is somehow at material risk of a tax demand, which is absurd but the market believes it.

I wouldn't call that a general market belief, because indeed some folks are beginning to be aware that this is pure BS.
Which doesn't mean that they don't use the argument for price chipping, and in this respect I fully agree with your conclusions.
In a sense, as a potential buyer, I actually hope that if and when I will find the right boat, the owner will NOT be able to provide a sound proof of VAT history...

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

@Deleted User #6, I don't agree a few comments. The hull number will be moulded into the transom; you don't need a document. HMRC will not dig out a record of VAT paid by an importing dealer (and it wont have been paid; it will merely have been accounted for as an in and an out). Even if that import VAT could be evidenced, it ought to be pretty meaningless in terms of proving VAT paid status as the market understands it because that dealer could have sold to a non UK buyer and not charged UK VAT, etc (though I accept that the putative buyer might fall for it!). Finally, neither a lawyer nor anyone else can (unless dodgy!) certify a photocopy as true, unless he/she also has or has had in his/her hand the original. In any case, the cost of a lawyer will be out of all monetary proportion to the problem.

First I agree that a VAT invoice proves little or nothing but the market does want it and for very good reason and that is that marine mortgage companies ask for it if you are financing a boat. Obviously whether or not a boat can be considered as VAT paid goes to the value of the boat and the amount that anybody is willing to lend on it.

As for the hull number being moulded into the transom or wherever, hull numbers have been known to be tampered with and I would certainly want some kind of original CE certificate or HIN certificate stamped and signed by the builder to confirm any hull number stamped on the boat

As for the dealer selling to a non UK buyer without VAT on the invoice, surely what counts is that the somebody ie the importer has paid the VAT on importation even if he claims it back later. I take your word for it on HMRC not being helpful. Personally I try to avoid any contact with HMRC as much as possible

With regard to notarisation, I can only cite my experience. Many years ago in the '90s I bought a boat in Germany which I wanted to Part 1 register in the UK and I made the huge mistake of believing the broker when he told me that all the documents that I had asked for would be sent to me after I paid for the boat. As it happened the documents were incomplete and what documents were given to me were photocopies which the UK registry told me would be unacceptable. I ended up employing Ward & McKenzie who tracked down the previous 2 owners of the boat in Germany. Unfortunately this did not yield any original documents but luckily they both agreed to sign the photocopied documents in front of a local lawyor as being true copies (or whatever the legal phrase is). W & M even created a new Bill of Sale for one of the transactions. Yes this cost me about £2500 which back then was a fair wedge of money. The notarised photocopied documents were then acceptable to the Registry and I got my Part 1. Again just by the by, the reason I was so keen to get the boat Part 1 registered was that, even though I didn't need a mortgage on the boat, I knew that any subsequent owner might, so getting the boat Part 1 registered actually made it more saleable IMHO

 

[MapisM]

W & M even created a new Bill of Sale for one of the transactions.

A legal Firm that creates a new BoS related to a past transaction in which they were not involved?
And I thought to have seen everything in the field of creative accounting...!

 

[jfm]

... the previous 2 owners of the boat ... both agreed to sign the photocopied documents in front of a local lawyor as being true copies ...

In general, we're agreeing. Ref the bit I quote above, that's what I said ("neither a lawyer nor anyone else can (unless dodgy!) certify a photocopy as true, unless he/she also has or has had in his/her hand the original") and is quite different from the suggestion that a lawyer will certify a copy as being true.

Must say, my eyebrows are raised as high as MapisM's at the report that W+M re-created a BoS. I hope they didn't do that and did something a bit different. Even getting Owner 1 to re-created the BoS transferring the boat to Owner 2 would be highly questionable.

 

[Portofino]

What nationality is the prospective buyer ?
It's just a light weight trailable ski boat ,wintered in a shed .12 y old . Could be a car where's the VAT doc ,s on used cars ?

Original VAT invoice --- so what ? It's the receipt for that stating VAT paid surely , if anybodies asking ?
Not raised invioce .
Also think about it ( dealer went bust around ,or just next day you drove off paying in full ) -- can he or the appointed administrator show me the paper trail of VAT element for that item ending up @ HMRC in the mix of wind up .Even you have a so called BOS

Agree original BOS ,on it's own --- tells a " Brit " buyer nowt , wether HMRC actually received the VAT all those years ago ,but the mkt perpetuates this myth the earth willstop spinning with out one .Or is it something quietly the mkt likes to
Perpetuate ? To give the buyer chip down ammunition ?

Btw as mentioned above most other EU states have a central reg system ,whereby the VAT status is recorded .Think uk DVLC for cars ,but with the financials as well as the other BS .
So nobody (that can read ) ask for Seperate - VAT proof via the original BOS , it's status is self evident on said doc /book .

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

A legal Firm that creates a new BoS related to a past transaction in which they were not involved?
And I thought to have seen everything in the field of creative accounting...!

Just to make this clear, the document that was missing (in fact it never existed) was a document confirming that the first owner of the boat had sold it to the second owner (who was selling it to me). W&M drafted a BoS which they took to Germany and which both the first and second owner signed in the presence of a local German lawyor. The UK Registry is just looking for proof of the chain of ownership over a number of years and that BoS satisfied their requirement. The Registry certainly knew this BoS was a new document. I guess W&M could have prepared some other kind of contract document to confirm the passing of title but I presume they felt that a normal BoS would be more acceptable to the Registry

I would have thought this kind of situation when title document goes missing or never existed happens all the time so what are you supposed to do?

 

[Momac]

Some advice here regarding the CE plate being evidence of conformity
http://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/legal/buying-a-boat/Pages/recreational-craft-directive.aspx

and this is what a bill of sale looks like
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/301532/msf_4705_bill_of_sale_rev_02-14.pdf

 

[jfm]

@ #13, that sounds ok. If it never existed and the registry were aware of what was being done then ok; if it existed but was lost, or registry weren't told, then it would have been different.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

@ #13, that sounds ok. If it never existed and the registry were aware of what was being done then ok; if it existed but was lost, or registry weren't told, then it would have been different.

One of the reasons I employed W&M was to negotiate with the Registry on my behalf. What that experience taught me was that boat documentation is far more hit and miss in Europe and since then, whenever I've bought a boat in Europe I have insisted on having actual sight of documents before completing on a sale even if it delays the sale

 

[laser001]

Well thanks for all the replies, I'm overwhelmed! So a quick update... whilst the dealer who originally sold our boat was unable to provide a copy invoice he did provide a declaration on headed paper that the boat was sold by them and duty paid. On the CE cert. we were able to get this from Mastercraft US (the OEM). So all good there.

But now we are trying to get to common ground on the trailer! As you know, in the UK pre [2009]? trailers didn't need to meet CE standards, but in France they have to a) meet CE standards; and b) be registered. So I'm now trying to find the homologation specs for the trailer (which I think was made by Bradley Trailers). I have yet to contact them (Mastercraft dealer wasn't able to assist). If I can't find any technical data, has anyone exported a UK trailer to France before and had it registered (and if so what might the process be)?

Thanks again everyone.

 

[rafiki_]

French trailer registration is different to UK, although both legal in home country. In the uk, if the trailer predates the registration first implementation, which I think is 2010 ish, although best to check with DVSA, then no registration required. I'm not sure when registration commenced in France, but your trailer may predate this so registration not needed, in that case.