copies of anchors

Bit of an old thread this, but I've just stumbled across it.

In the case of a genuine original idea that is then stolen by someone else, my sympathy would be entirely with the originator of the idea - so in the case of the suitcase inventor mentioned above who now goes to a lot of trouble to block clones, good for him.

When it comes to anchors, though, is it that straightforward? I'm certainly not an expert on anchor history, but if one takes the Bügel, Rocna, Manson Supreme, Mantus and Knox, is there not a certain amount of similarity there? Maybe, like latter day Newtons and Leibnitzs, all these designers worked completely independently, but I wouldn't stake a lot on that. There are lots of ploughs that are broadly similar, etc etc. Don't Rocna and Manson pretty much accuse each other of stealing their ideas?

I'm not sure either that it's possible to say that stuff manufactured in China is necessarily not good - eg most Apple products are made there and seem to carry a huge price premium because of their reputation for high quality. I'm also not so sure about design tweaks: probably all of Rocna, Mantus, Manson and Knox would claim that their particular refinement of the design is the best one, and each would have supporters who agreed.

Thus, it seems to me, a copy might be a poorly made instance of someone else's intelectual property, but it might be a perfectly well made interpretation of what is pretty much a standard design, with less profit along the way. And while stinginess is not a great thing, an average boat owner whose finances are already stretched might be forgiven for trying to save a few pounds where there is a choice of products that are similar in design and quality but not price.
 
If a manufacturer who tweaks or directly copies a design but does not feel the necessity to label his product with the name of the manufacturer then I might suggest they might have cut corners in their choice of raw materials and manufacturing process. The product might be cheap but it might also be nasty.

Unless you can guarantee you will never need to use your anchor in an emergency, will not overnight and will not reply on that anchor to 'secure' unsuspecting crew then saving money on an anchor looks questionable.

Good, reliable anchors are good, reliable insurance.

Jonathan
 
J Neeves said:
If a manufacturer who tweaks or directly copies a design but does not feel the necessity to label his product with the name of the manufacturer then I might suggest they might have cut corners in their choice of raw materials and manufacturing process. The product might be cheap but it might also be nasty.

Unless you can guarantee you will never need to use your anchor in an emergency, will not overnight and will not reply on that anchor to 'secure' unsuspecting crew then saving money on an anchor looks questionable.

Good, reliable anchors are good, reliable insurance.
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How many anchors have you heard of breaking?
 
JumbleDuck said:
How many anchors have you heard of breaking?
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Anyway, breaking is only one problem - they need to work before you need to worry about them breaking.

How many CQR, Delta, Bugel, Bruce copies or clones have you tried? Do they work as well as the original? Would you want to rely on any one of these unbranded model when the wind is 40 knots across the deck?

Its a personal decision, I prefer to spend, say $500 on a reliable tested model that I can then use for the next 10 years than spend $100 for some approximation to an original. I equally would not recommend anyone to rely on the $100 approximation. Each to their own.

Jonathan
 
mk
Storyline said:
Can verify that. Years ago we were involved as silent partners in a chandlery/sail loft and I used to work the Saturday morning shift. It was quite extraordinary that guys with expensive boats would winge and moan over just a few quid for sail or canvas repairs. A typical example would be that someone would collect something that had been handed in for repair during the week. I charged them what was shown on the job sheet and often the retort was 'but xxx said it would only be around £15 and now you want to charge me £17.50'. Am sure some were just trying it on. It almost seemed that the more expensive the boat, the more miserly the rbo.
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Contrast that with me taking a sail catcher in to be shortened, how much? Oh about £70, OK, give us a shout if its anymore.
No shout,go to pick it up, that will be £180! On yer bike! here is £70! Got it back to the boat, one side was longer than the other!
S
 
J Neeves said:
How many CQR, Delta, Bugel, Bruce copies or clones have you tried? Do they work as well as the original? Would you want to rely on any one of these unbranded model when the wind is 40 knots across the deck?

Its a personal decision, I prefer to spend, say $500 on a reliable tested model that I can then use for the next 10 years than spend $100 for some approximation to an original. I equally would not recommend anyone to rely on the $100 approximation. Each to their own.
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What sort of test do you have in mind?
 
J Neeves said:
I wondered what the collective view was to copying of anchors, or copying anything come to that:

I came across this anchor:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-HEAV...AU_Boat_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20e558a1d5

which looks like an exact copy of a Mantus, except its welded and only comes in small sizes.

I tried to contact the international marketing guru for Mantus, but he was not interested.

So a few questions

Is it a copy, does it upset you that some small entrepreneur has his design stolen.

If you do not like the idea - what can be done about it, in this case (i'm embarrassed to say) the copy seems available in Australia and the designer is in America.

Jonathan
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Sort of Mantus copy - farther on they refer to it as a "Sarca".
It also has a Manson-like slot in the shank (which looks considerably undersize).
I've filed it with such triumphs of marine engineering as the "Box" anchor.

Copies severely devalue the original (hence the contempt of the uneducated for the CQR and Bruce anchors).
Having used a genuine CQR for about 1000 successful anchorings, I'd agree it has its foibles but then all anchors have their own strengths and weaknesses.
 
vyv_cox said:
I have photos of four or five. I was sent photos of one that broke off Llandudno in a force 3 and wrote a piece about it for YM a couple of years ago. I also have quite a collection of pics of seriously bent ones (other than Rocnas!)
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Thanks. Of these, how many had the maker's name on them?
 
JumbleDuck said:
Thanks. Of these, how many had the maker's name on them?
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The bent ones are probably all genuine. Any well-made and engineered product will bend if loaded heavily enough, so I don't see them as being faulty. Of the broken ones, one is a cast genuine CQR that has been shown on here several times. The others are Bruce copies, cast iron I would imagine but one is in a poor stainless steel.
 
charles_reed said:
Sort of Mantus copy - farther on they refer to it as a "Sarca".
It also has a Manson-like slot in the shank (which looks considerably undersize).
I've filed it with such triumphs of marine engineering as the "Box" anchor.

Copies severely devalue the original (hence the contempt of the uneducated for the CQR and Bruce anchors).
Having used a genuine CQR for about 1000 successful anchorings, I'd agree it has its foibles but then all anchors have their own strengths and weaknesses.
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The SARCA is a registered design of Anchor Right in Australia and I suspect this is a copy (but do not know). Certainly the owner of Anchor Right spends money on discouraging purveyors of copies (usually made in China). But it underlies the point that you make. Additionally spending money on protecting his business is not in 'our' interest. The copies are commonly inferior (and can reduce the credibility of his brand) and he is denied the opportunity to focus that money to make better anchors.

And of your final sentence - the skill is understanding the weaknesses (of any anchor).

Jonathan
 
vyv_cox said:
The bent ones are probably all genuine. Any well-made and engineered product will bend if loaded heavily enough, so I don't see them as being faulty.
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Thanks, Vyv. It might be arguable that a well-designed anchor will drag before breaking, thus at least living the chance of resetting, but of course nothing could be expected to do that it was fouled on something or jammed between a couple of rocks.

Of the broken ones, one is a cast genuine CQR that has been shown on here several times. The others are Bruce copies, cast iron I would imagine but one is in a poor stainless steel.
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Is the "cast genuine CQR" is one of the fractional-pound SL ones? Luckily the anchor on which I depend most seems unlikely to break ... until someone finds a way to bend a railway wheel.
 
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