Coolant change Fq ?

[Portofino]

This is what happens if you inadvertently defer your closed coolant change frequency.
There’s plenty of posts on oil changes with a broad consensus on here but few on coolant .
Personally I pump out 10 L every year from the header tank and replenish.The total vol is 30 L .Ifs a phaff to do a official drain down and refill and bleed through every 3 y or what ever with MAN s .
What you are trying to achieve is sufficient concentration of anti corrosion additive , keep the levels up .It depletes with time .

Leave it too long and this ...( not one of mine btw ) for illustration classic car similar seasonal use age pattern .

 

[MapisM]

Personally I pump out 10 L every year from the header tank and replenish.The total vol is 30 L .Ifs a phaff to do a official drain down and refill and bleed through every 3 y or what ever with MAN s

Is that your own recipe, or was it recommended to you by a MAN engineer?
I never heard anyone suggesting partial refills.

 

[Momac]

I never heard anyone suggesting partial refills.

However I am interested . It does seem like a plan and presumably can't possibly do any harm.

 

[petem]

VP recommend a coolant change every other year.

Somebody once told me that brown staining in the header tank is the sign of a boat that hasn't been brilliantly looked after.

 

[MapisM]

However I am interested . It does seem like a plan and presumably can't possibly do any harm.

I didn't say it does. Just made me curious to hear where the idea comes from.

 

[Portofino]

[QUOTE="MapisM, post: 7022372, member: n
u
It’s my own .
I,ll repeat the rational once more .........it’s a right phaff with risks of not being able to reseal or worse still x thread the drain threads
Dont fancy totally removing the “ knackered “ part be it whole intercooler, exhaust manifold or CAC and sending away to retap or helicoil the plug thread .
Any how assuming you ( or your ham fisted mechanic ) avoids ^^^^ then there’s bleeding the system , topping up , check and rechecking after in a man maths kinda way loosing tabs on exactly how L did i drain out ? How many did I put back ? Why is the refill less than the drain ? Any air pockets ?

Fortunately the header tank is massive a third of the total vol .
I don’t think the KAD series are as big as they are expansion tanks .....slightly different system .
But on the other hand simple rubber bungs to drain not as phaffy and only 12 L .

@ PeteM yup brown is corrosion....not good .

So @ Mapish at the very least have a look inside your tank(s) and check the colour = nice almost fluorescent green .

 

[Portofino]

What where the symptoms that lead to opening up that engine .....anybody ?

 

[vas]

no idea, but tbh if you like me decide to open up the heat exchangers, chemically clean the cores and reassemble with new o-rings every couple (or three) years, you have new coolant at these intervals. Main issue is how to dispose the old coolant

V.

 

[markc]

Is it not possible to just to add new inhibitor concentrate, rather than draining the system?

 

[Portofino]

Is it not possible to just to add new inhibitor concentrate, rather than draining the system?

That’s basically what Iam doing .
replenishing 10 L about a 1/ 3rd every year .
Its cheap as chips ( relative to boating £ ) about €10 / 5 L in Italian supermarkets .( Mercato for MapishM ) So €40 .
Just empty the header tank with a pump and top right back up .....easy .

As mentioned the problems the phaff and know how with engines running ( wife on helm you in the ER ) to bleed the turbos .
Air gets trapped with a total drain down in the turbo jacket housing .

If you convince yourselves the maths with the vol out = vol in is ok and go a test run , your std temp gauges of jacket temp say 85 and EGT s , oil temps may appear normal while the turbo is frying due to an air lock its housing .
There is a bleed screw ( one of many ) you suppose to open and vent out air / bubbles while running .It will take a few goes and patience. Why take the risk ? Risks on many levels unless you want to send someone else with spanner’s to do it while you helm ?
wont get hot enough at the dock , and if you think you have got all the air out at the dock there’s always gonna be that nagging doubt in the next few month if a turbo gives up ......what was the cause ?
Applies to MAN and suspect MTU as same engine architecture.

 

[markc]

That’s basically what Iam doing .
replenishing 10 L about a 1/ 3rd every year .
Its cheap as chips ( relative to boating £ ) about €10 / 5 L in Italian supermarkets .( Mercato for MapishM ) So €40 .
Just empty the header tank with a pump and top right back up .....easy .

As mentioned the problems the phaff and know how with engines running ( wife on helm you in the ER ) to bleed the turbos .
Air gets trapped with a total drain down in the turbo jacket housing .

If you convince yourselves the maths with the vol out = vol in is ok and go a test run , your std temp gauges of jacket temp say 85 and EGT s , oil temps may appear normal while the turbo is frying due to an air lock its housing .
There is a bleed screw ( one of many ) you suppose to open and vent out air / bubbles while running .It will take a few goes and patience. Why take the risk ? Risks on many levels unless you want to send someone else with spanner’s to do it while you helm ?
wont get hot enough at the dock , and if you think you have got all the air out at the dock there’s always gonna be that nagging doubt in the next few month if a turbo gives up ......what was the cause ?
Applies to MAN and suspect MTU as same engine architecture.

Yep, understand all that, but as you're only replacing 1/3 with what I assume is premix coolant, wouldn't it be better just to add the inhibitor concentrate, enough to fully treat the total coolant volume?

 

[Portofino]

Yep, understand all that, but as you're only replacing 1/3 with what I assume is premix coolant, wouldn't it be better just to add the inhibitor concentrate, enough to fully treat the total coolant volume?

Don’t know .....what about a build up of spent inhibitors? Not removing them I suspect ( without going into the chemistry ) that after a while the whole thing looses its anti corrosion effectiveness or becomes antagonistic to any seals .
I know with the k19 series of Cummins diesels the rubber seal around the liner sleeve would prematurely perish if certain concentrations in the coolant were allowed to build up . There was a test you sent coolant off to a lab and told you if it needed a rebuild .. As when the liner seal started to fail combustion product can be detected.Engine s run fine btw .....well for now !

You probably could get away for a while adding an extra additive but eventually imho its asking for trouble.

 

[Portofino]

Ring fracture = blow by was the reason the engine was pulled and opened up .

This is because of the uneven coolant flow round the cylinder bores , leading to uneven thermal dimensional change of the cylinders and resulting tight spots putting too much strain on part of the upper gas ring which starts to bind and fractures .

Products of corrosion clearly seen in the pics impeded the flow of the coolant .

Also in the first pic some green coagulation of spent coolant forming gel stuff clogging the passage way . That might have nothing to do with anti corrosion, more to do with thermal cycles and natural oxidation of the ethylene glycol = gel formation

I think you to regularly refresh it in aged machinery......start by looking at the colour .

 

[MapisM]

Its cheap as chips ( relative to boating £ ) about €10 / 5 L in Italian supermarkets

€2/litre sounds TOO cheap. What product are you using, exactly?

 

[Portofino]

€2/litre sounds TOO cheap. What product are you using, exactly?

It s in Mercato .
Ive just returned from IT you will have to pop along to a store .
Could have been 4 L ? But deffo €10 .... They do green and pink ready mix coolant .I,am on green .I refresh it in October. Was in the shop in Loano saw on the shelf this AM . Suitable for minus 20 or Something ....just bog std automotive antifreeze.
Just make sure to use the same colour as in .
Previous years I have bought it in Fr

There 3275 MAN spec 5 L top up 15/40 W oil is €19.90: I bought two today , to complement the 3x 20 L bulk stuff I took from CH over the W/E as need 32 L ish per side .
The oil i bought from a Swiss farm machinery shop worked out in 20 L drums about / around €3 / L it’s marked amongst other accreditation's MAN 3275 spec .

 

[MapisM]

Does it possibly look like this....?

 

[MapisM]

need 32 L ish per side

I half recall that we already had this debate, but I can't help wondering why.
My V8s take 24L, and aside from the manual, it's also specified in the valve cover label.
Doesn't mean that a smaller engine can't take more oil of course, but this spec sheet of your engines mentions 18L.
And it also specifies that it's for the deep sump, so theoretically other sumps could only be smaller...

 

[Portofino]

Well here’s the page out of a manual that came with the engines .
Note the coolant drain vol as well eek 58 L not what I thought initially around 30 L .
Yes that’s the stuff in the pic .
My oil vol is correct because in the yard using empty 5 L canisters we normally extract that , can count you know or have been for the past 5 y counting what comes out .....mid mark on the stick .


pump goes where a sump plug ordinarily would be .


Filter case must hold 2L + ?



So you can see 3 x 20 L is never enough , 30 does not get up to the bottom mark on the stick .

Hence a 70 L purchase .
Sorry your data sheet does not apply to my engines .....last time we had this “ debate “ you published the same pic .So recently while reviewing my manual I took a quick a snap of the page ........in anticipation you would be back !

 

[Portofino]

AREXONS 8051 LT.4,5 PROTETTIVO RADIATORI: Amazon.it: Fai da te

As said it’s €9.80 in Loano Mercato .( supermarket chain in Italy ) 4.5 L .Tbo I can’t recall if I bought 8 or 10 containers ...I just cleared the shelf and filled my trolly .
product description translated for the benefit of readers

Product description
“[Ready to use, it ensures an anti-freezing, anti-boiling, anti-corrosive, anti-foam, anti-limescale and anti-cavitation action. Suitable for top-ups, in addition to any pre-existing liquid. Protection from -20 ° C to + 121 ° C in operating conditions. In the bottle.] “

Actually I like the alleged anti -cavitation bit .
Cavitation is where because of vibrations of a high Fq un audible to the human ear ,of the cylinder liners exposed to the coolant .....tiny chunks of metal are removed from the out side of the liners where coolant flows .You don't want that !
It’s an issue with diesels - liner cavitation because of the huge cylinder pressures .A none issue with petrols .



Said this before the shore side living in IT is pleasantly cheap , a coffee is only €1- 20 ,

The one I struggle with is a pint of Stella in Italy they call it “ medium “ 0.5 L as a largo / large is 1L glass * is less than €5 In a bar but in Fr Cote d Azur it’s approx €7+ ....maybe near 8 .Yet its come from Fr ?

A large 1L bottle of Moretti is 0.98 € in Mercato so less than 1/2 € a pint .

While we are on the subject of cocking up vol of fluids .....
Made the mistake of requesting a large / big one ..and got served a Litre

 

[MapisM]

Thanks PF, interesting overview. Just a few comments:

Ref. oil qty in your engines, well, if that's what your manual says, it is what it is.
Along the lines of better safe than sorry, do you possibly still have the original labels on the valve covers (see pic below)?
I'm only asking because I heard from more than one MAN engineer that the oil dipstick marks can be anywhere from very accurate from very wrong, depending on who made the first commissioning.
So, you'd better start knowing the right quantities (min/max) and check if they match the dipstick marks, rather than the other way round.
In fact, as I learned, the first start-up procedure is as follows:
The engines come from the factory with un-marked dipsticks, but with labels showing the oil amount consistent with the type of oil pan fitted - which in turn depends on the boatbuilder installation requirements.
After the engines installation, upon first sea trial and commissioning, the builder MUST involve an official MAN dealer (also because, in absence of his signature, MAN is entitled to not honour the warranty).
This chap must fill the engine with oil up to the "minimum" amount shown in the yellow label (20L, in my case), wait for it to drain, and then carve the lower mark on the dipstick.
Next step, add the differential quantity (4L, in my case) and carve the upper mark.
So, you can see why the dipstick reliability very much depends on how accurately whoever commissioned the boat did his job.

Ref. the coolant, the one in your Amazon link is exactly the one which I guessed, as per pic attached to my previous post.
Which I'm afraid is not compliant with MAN approval though, which for our engines is the "324-NF".
Different from CR engines btw, which IIRC use the "SNF", i.e. Silicate Nitrite Free rather than "just" Nitrite Free.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure to have looked at the rear label of that Arexons stuff when I saw it in some supermarket in the past, and there was no mention of any MAN approvals (neither NF, nor SNF).
I'm not saying you shouldn't use it, or that it can damage any engine component - just that you can't know for sure.
For the records, the cooling liquid I used for my engines is the Mobil Antifreeze Extra, which is specifically 324-NF approved.
Blue colour FWIW, though I don't think there's a 1 to 1 relationship between the different colours and the approved specs of each liquid.