prv
Well-Known Member
Uh-oh!
Obviously I don't know anything about the boat or how much you're paying for it, but be aware that abandoned projects are very rarely an economic proposition.
Pete
Conversion to Electric Power for a 32ft Sailboat
- Thread starter thesaintlyone
- Start date
Uh-oh!
Obviously I don't know anything about the boat or how much you're paying for it, but be aware that abandoned projects are very rarely an economic proposition.
Pete
Pete7
Well-Known Member
Your 32ft yacht doesn't need 28hp. We have 28 hp in a 31ft yacht, but only because Moody probably got a good deal from Volvo and stuffed them in a whole range of yachts including much bigger. I think we could use a 20hp and not notice the difference.
Pete
Pete
BabaYaga
Well-Known Member
I agree with what has been said concerning range/power storage limits etc. but here is a link for some further reading:
http://greenstarmarine.se/en/
This company has made a number of electric power installations here.
earlybird
Well-Known Member
thesaintlyone
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the engine info mostly looked at 28hp as there are some Volvo Centre Reconditioned units around at about £2000 will post a separate question regarding size suitability when I have the boat.
To say she is Abandoned is a bit harsh she has been left in a yard with all fees paid but no one has been near her in 5+ years currently waiting on the yard owner to get in touch with the boat owner to see if she would be available. Been looking over her alot to decide what nerds doing and hoping I can obtain her for a reasonable fee some stuff has already done and im in the planning stages of the project hence this thread.
Just finishing up on a Westerly Jouster project that is too small for my needs
Unfortunately Im not sure I can get a tow round the english channel from a pony???? ;-)
To say she is Abandoned is a bit harsh she has been left in a yard with all fees paid but no one has been near her in 5+ years currently waiting on the yard owner to get in touch with the boat owner to see if she would be available. Been looking over her alot to decide what nerds doing and hoping I can obtain her for a reasonable fee some stuff has already done and im in the planning stages of the project hence this thread.
Just finishing up on a Westerly Jouster project that is too small for my needs
Unfortunately Im not sure I can get a tow round the english channel from a pony???? ;-)
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The hp you need will depend on two main factors. First the displacement of the boat and the size of propeller you can swing. If the displacement is over 5 tons then 28 would be fine. Get the data on the boat and feed it into the Propcalc programme on www.castlemarine.co.uk and you will get a suggested prop size and speed for different combinations of engine hp and gearbox reduction ratios.
thesaintlyone
Well-Known Member
Thanks
Couldn't see the Prop Calc only Pitch
Regards
Couldn't see the Prop Calc only Pitch
Regards
Tranona
Well-Known Member
It is a programme on their website where you can enter the relevant data for your boat and get recommendations for prop size and performance predictions. Only runs on older operating systems such as XP or Vista.
Seajet
...
When considering making new Anderson 22's I was very keen on an electric auxilliary; however after chatting it over with the very helpful engineer from Torqeedo, it became clear that even with Li-ion batteries the only way to have sufficient capacity would be to incorporate them as ballast.
Not feasible for an A22 type plate & bulb keel but might work with an encapsulated long keel - leaving the question of how one charges it.
In other words, one is still pretty much a U-Boat !
Not feasible for an A22 type plate & bulb keel but might work with an encapsulated long keel - leaving the question of how one charges it.
In other words, one is still pretty much a U-Boat !
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
And the trouble with Li-ion is that they are much too light for ballast anyway. I reckon electric propulsion has huge possibilities for short range stuff (racing boats getting themselves out of their berths and back with a system weighing two third of stuff all) but I can't see it being practical for anything involving runs of more than a few hours between marinas for the foreseeable future. I'm less pessimistic than Tranona about hybrids, because I can imagine a 40 hp diesel being replaced by a 20 + 20 hybrid which would give easy marina manoeuvring on electric, economical long-range auxiliary power on diesel and a few hours' worth of "get me outta here" on both.
Boo2
Well-Known Member
I don't know anything about these setups but I would point out that a 25hp electric motor is 19kW which is 380 amps at 50 volts so personally I am a bit dubious about the prospect in a small sailing boat.
Boo2
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Something similar has already been done and was a failure - at least despite Enterprise Scheme (I think it was) cash never got past the prototype stage. Small Yanmar in the forepeak and electric motor driving the shaft with complex electronics to control it. Was well publicised at the time.
Yanmar launched a serial hybrid and Mastervolt a parallel, but again never got further than publicity. The cost, weight and bulk are against them, and apart from the silence of electric power have nothing going for them in terms of economy of efficiency. Greenline have sold a small number of hybrid powercruisers, but again non commercial success and are now out of production. jeremy rogers built a Contessa 32 with a Beta hybrid to show it could be done, but again nobody has followed it up.
For sailboat auxiliaries hybrid is a poor technical solution to a non existent problem
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Mastervolt still think they make them: http://www.mastervolt.com/products/hybridmaster/#
Two issues there. First of all the solutions are changing all the time as technology improves. Five years ago Li-ion batteries were a novelty. Today they are an expensive commodity item. In five years time ... ? Motors are getting smaller, control systems are getting better.
Secondly, your (non-)problems are not other people's (non-) problems. I haven't yet had the pleasure of a trip on the electric V800, but as a solution to its owner's problems it sounds great. He has an auxiliary which can be started in a second, has substantially more power available than the previous diesel and can be plugged in to refuel. The nearest fuel berth is on the other side of the Clyde. The only downside for him is the range, and a hybrid would deal with that.
Anyway, I can't think of a better definition of any sailing yacht than "a poor technical solution to a non existent problem"!
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Just with your example you are illustrating how significant the supposed problem. How many people with a substantial cruising boat that needs an auxiliary would be satisfied with just being able to get in an out of a berth for a day and then plug into shorepower? You have just described the usage pattern where electric power has been used for years - inland waterways, short duration, followed by overnight shorebased charging.
The power problem for cruising yachts was solved long ago by small IC engines which have now reached a level of refinement, efficiency and reliability that is very satisfactory.
You did the sums earlier on to show how much storage capacity is required to provide range, and it is far greater than is possible on a yacht, and the only viable means of producing energy on board is an IC engine. So where is the advantage in using an IC engine to produce power which you then convert into electricity to provide propulsion?
Unlike road vehicles there is no political pressure to replace diesel in yachts, therefore no money for research. In the vehicle world the developments are infrastructure to support charging rather than on board charging or energy recovery to complement the IC engine and increase performance. Very little in on board energy storage, at least for the mass market. so difficult to see what developments are likely to trickle down to the tiny marine market.
The power problem for cruising yachts was solved long ago by small IC engines which have now reached a level of refinement, efficiency and reliability that is very satisfactory.
You did the sums earlier on to show how much storage capacity is required to provide range, and it is far greater than is possible on a yacht, and the only viable means of producing energy on board is an IC engine. So where is the advantage in using an IC engine to produce power which you then convert into electricity to provide propulsion?
Unlike road vehicles there is no political pressure to replace diesel in yachts, therefore no money for research. In the vehicle world the developments are infrastructure to support charging rather than on board charging or energy recovery to complement the IC engine and increase performance. Very little in on board energy storage, at least for the mass market. so difficult to see what developments are likely to trickle down to the tiny marine market.
thesaintlyone
Well-Known Member
Couple of interesting success Stories
Interesting Link
http://www.annapolishybridmarine.com/resources/Hylas%2044%20Conversion%20to%20Electric%20Propulsion.pdf
Interesting Link
http://www.annapolishybridmarine.com/resources/Hylas%2044%20Conversion%20to%20Electric%20Propulsion.pdf
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
An awful lot of racers, for a start. Many people who day sail from marinas. Probably lots of others too.
That's just the pure electric type, of course. As you say, the answer for longer range stuff is an ic engine, which is why I think hybrids will find their place.
It will come. We will not be able to go on belching out particulates from crude diesel engines for ever, and probably not even for long.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I think you would be better off with some reliable technology- Try
http://www.classicboat.co.uk/articles/seagull-outboards/
http://www.classicboat.co.uk/articles/seagull-outboards/
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
Friends of mine have a hybrid powered narrowboat. It is quite an interesting setup; they have a few hundred watts of solar panels that charge a battery bank, and a generator that cuts in when the batteries run low. They find that a week's solar charging gives them a weekend's cruising, and the generator cuts in if they go further. Of course, the power requirements for a narrowboat are lower than that for a sea-going boat, because of speed limits etc., and they are unlikely to have to face significant waves!
The advantage of hybrid systems is efficiency; that's why railway engines are diesel-electric powered. If an IC engine can run at constant revs, it can be vastly more efficient than one that has to cope with varying torque/power requirements. I gather than electric motors are far more efficient under a varying load than IC engines are. Of course, a ship that is intended to plod along at a constant speed for long distances won't realize this advantage; it will be designed so the engine operates at peak efficiency at the cruising speed.
The advantage of hybrid systems is efficiency; that's why railway engines are diesel-electric powered. If an IC engine can run at constant revs, it can be vastly more efficient than one that has to cope with varying torque/power requirements. I gather than electric motors are far more efficient under a varying load than IC engines are. Of course, a ship that is intended to plod along at a constant speed for long distances won't realize this advantage; it will be designed so the engine operates at peak efficiency at the cruising speed.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
That is not the conclusion Nigel Calder came to. He found the "efficiency" was only in a very narrow band and would not be relevant to typical cruising yacht usage. Complicated issue, but he explained it well in his series of articles in PBO.
Hybrids that blend IC and electric as used in cars is very different from that used in boats such cruise liners which only use electric power - the electricity is generated using a diesel generator on board which also provides electricity for everything else. The actual motors are in the steerable propulsion pods.
A sailboat auxiliary gains no benefit from the road vehicle type hybrids, using a combination of electric and diesel, which is what people have tried so far, and perhaps why they have not made any impact. To expensive, too heavy, too complicated for no functional gain.