Continuous Cruising

Been busy with the day job all day today so just seen the replies.
Sturier in the link is a boat built for a friend of mine. It is absolutely cracking and will be worth the asking price but, ouch, it is not inexpensive is it!
Privateer are a super boat and well built, again a small Dutch yard building low volume high quality boats. I was so impressed when I first saw them that I offered to be the UK agent but they politely declined saying they did not have the volume to warrant it, then I stayed for a long chat and a drink on board with them. Most hospitable and I wish them every success (and more volume).
We happen to be listing a few Holtermans at the moment as one of my Dutch colleagues is a Surveyor and he has introduced us to the yard involved. Nice boats and solidly put together, design wise they are traditional so not as 'modern' as some boats but that said they are very good and fit for purpose.
Elling is a good concept but IMO they are very small inside and I for one would not want to go for long periods aboard one. Not sure if they are still current or not as I had heard there were difficulties some time back. Good enough boats but not ideal for long periods aboard and if you have a twin engine one the engine room will be cramped as they are not very large to start with.
Rusting issues with Steel boats are not relevant if it is built correctly in the first place and treated against rust ON THE INSIDE. any repairs necessary are esily covered with a can of spray paint until you can get it professionally sorted. They also do not hole as readily as GRP boats:)
Have a good weekend everyone. Enjoy your boats, I'll be doing the lawns I suspect!
 
Deleted User said:
Thanks, Erik. I confess that I've never heard of Holterman but they look like quite a substantial yard. How is the Sturier better than the Privateer?
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I don't want to knock the Privateer but you cannot compare boats build for different markets, BenJeBav vs Swan or Oyster kind of thing.
 
Deleted User said:
As I said it can be done by an independent body but not necessarily so and in any case, that body is reliant on technical and design info supplied by the builder
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That is not quite right. The design, construction and QA systems need to be according to recognized standards and certified independently (apart from CatD). The self certification bit only means that each individual boat not need independent certification, just that the builder certifies that the boat was built according to the approved design.

Your earlier comment that Cat A boat is not necessarily more seaworthy that B is valid as often the difference is in the equipment and layout rather than stability and comfort at sea. The categories are a crude device for capturing complex factors.
 
Tranona is right, CAT A boats normally have to have additional features e.g. to prevent water ingress through rear doors, no forward opening windows and that sort of thing. A fine line between the two but there are differences. IIRC Cat B is OK up to a F8 and an A is OK above an 8. Why the heck would you choose to go out in an 8 anyway? I admit you might get caught in one but if so you would either be well prepared for it in advance and too far from land to do anything else but batten down the hatches or be well on the way to a haven!
Most boats simply have the first one in a line tested for Cat compliance and then are self certificated by the builders as 'true to pattern'. Some builders, especially in Holland, will certificate each boat separately. Certainly VDV does this. Probably because everyone is son different to the last one. I personally think that for the small cost of this it is a great idea and should give some assurance to the owners of that specific craft knowing it has been checked in its own right.

Deleted User Yes, it was Eddy. A really larger than life character, highly respected in the Dutch Industry and I am pleased to say is a good friend of ours. He is well although the reason he gave up the business and sold it was that he was very unwell. Happily he recovered fully and is now enjoying life , he still keeps in touch regularly and although the boats are technically still available, the moulds have not been used for a very long time and would now need some work before being fit for use again anyway. They guys who own the company name and location are waiting for someone to come along and commission an Aluminium boat that is the new design. The GRP Atlantic's were all moulded in the UK and then shipped to Holland for fit out if they were a 444 and nearly all the 42's and 38's were fitted in Oundle under control and licence from Eddy and about half the 50's were done in the UK as well. Only 2 x 60's were ever built and they were both done in the UK. The yard was called Sea Ranger and was right next door to Fairline. They had many good ex Fairline guys working there because for example, on the joinery, instead of making a 'unit' which would fit any boat they were engaged with the clients as every boat had an element of custom build so their job was varied. Indeed they were encouraged to come up with solutions and suggestions to improve the boats and add value for the client. We still have an association with the ex works director of Sea Ranger. He undertakes all our refit work for whatever boat it might be. He is a brilliant carpenter and just an all round great chap who really cares about his work. (plug, plug!).
Mike.
 
EU RCD categories and certification

OK, since I started this, I'd better wrap it up. The real deal on EU categorisation is here:here . A useful summary is here: here and I found a relevant thread on this forum here.

This is why all this stuff matters to me: http://www.setsail.com/evaluating-stability-and-capsize-risks-for-yachts/. This remark rings true: 'For sailboat designers, builders, and buyers, analyzing stability is at the top of the list. Almost all sailboat design and sea trial articles will publish a stability curve. There seems to be less concern from the power boat end of the spectrum, which may be acceptable in protected waters, with shelter close at hand. Offshore, with wind and wave risks factored in, one could argue for a more proactive approach to stability analysis.'

Most people count themselves fair-weather sailors, I certainly do. And the weather forecasts are more accurate than they used to be. But on a long passage it's not difficult to be caught out. I want a boat which can cruise offshore safely. Since I started this thread I have learned that there are some Dutch offshore steel boats that will do this, but certainly not all of them.

Going shopping in the next couple of weeks.
 
You also need to consider comfort. In the sailing world there are boats with high stability that are really uncomfortable in heavy weather and boats with low stability on paper but very buoyant and comfortable left to themselves when the going gets tough. So, treat the stability data with caution - not only is it sometimes misleading depending on how it is calculated, particularly in boats near the margins, but it only tells part of the story.

For obvious reasons there is far more knowledge about the characteristics of sailing boats that make them good for long distance cruising than power boats, but even then there is a wide range of opinion as to what "good" means!
 
TwoHooter said:
Same as everything else to do with boats then?
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Exactly! Just in the process of deciding on a new boat myself and short list of 3 plus a maybe extra 1. Just about to put them on a spreadsheet as the specs and prices don't easily line up. Very scientific, but in the end SWMBO will decide (having been well primed beforehand of course). Fortunately they are all "good" for what I want which is why they are the short list.
 
Grand Banks are much loved and respected by many. One of them cured me of seasickness when I did my Yachtmaster exams, I was ill for 4 days after which time, having not actually died as I thought I was doing, I have not been ill again ever. :triumphant:
True the one I was on did not have stabs fitted but after my experience, I would think this is essential.:)
 
Looking at boats this week

Monique said:
Have a look at this selection... all around 50 ft... Grand Banks are well rated.
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Thanks for the list. Hoping to see one of those quite soon.

Imperial One said:
Grand Banks are much loved and respected by many. One of them cured me of seasickness when I did my Yachtmaster exams, I was ill for 4 days after which time, having not actually died as I thought I was doing, I have not been ill again ever. True the one I was on did not have stabs fitted but after my experience, I would think this is essential.:)
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This whole stabiliser thing is a query in my mind. I suppose it depends what one is actually going to do with the boat (as opposed to dreaming about doing). Demanding stabilisers is a very good way to thin a long list of boats down to a short list.
 
Have now been out shopping. Saw 9 boats in 3 days including a Grand Banks 42 – only one Dutch steel boat but there are more of those to come.

Cheapest was £50k, most expensive were 2 different boats, each at £249k. Oldest was built in 1982, newest built in 2010. Biggest was 52ft, smallest 36ft. Condition varied from “good as new” to “live-aboard hovel”. There’s a lot of hovels out there.

The idea behind looking at cheaper older boats was that I know two firms that could do a good quality refit. But it became apparent we would end up spending as much as buying a nicer, newer boat and all we’d have is a refitted old boat. We will leave that option to the DIYers. It’s unlikely we will spend less than £150k on the next boat and we probably won’t look at anything else which is more than 15 years old.

Most of the boats, particularly the bigger ones, would have benefitted from stabilisers. None had them. I have looked into the cost of fitting them and it’s not on. I suspect we will have to choose between crossing stabs off the list or increasing our budget by 100k which we can’t do at the moment.

One quite worrying result of the trip was that I was simply horrified by the engine compartment on most of the boats we saw. The brokers seemed surprised that I was going down the hatches and crawling around the engines, trying to work out how to change a starter motor or a stern gland or get at the electronics on the more modern boats. As I was trying to wriggle over the exhaust on one boat to get at the far side of an engine the broker remarked that there was “nothing there”. Huh? I counted 15 hose clips (one of which showed signs of a leak), one electronic engine control unit, and so on. Some of the engines were shoe-horned into such cramped spaces that there was literally no access to the hull side and we saw a generator where the only way to do any maintenance would have been to dismantle the built-in settee and cut a new hatch in the sole so you could get the sound enclosure off. On at least 5 of the boats you would have to cut a hole in the overhead to get an engine out. I thought bigger boats would have more space in the engine bay but in fact they just had bigger engines which took up all the room. On our yacht I can get to every component on the engine without any trouble, and if the engine has to come out it will fit through the cockpit hatch. This was a real eye-opener and I’m not sure what the answer is.

Hat tip to the brokers. They all knew we are at the beginning of our search and unlikely to buy anything there and then but they all looked after us well.
 
Be careful about a refit... I am in the middle of one now and the costs have gone up 4 X from my original estimates. However, the boat will be "ours" and have some comforts few sailing vessels have. It is like owning a collector car; wait for someone else to have done the big chequebook items.

GL with your search. Take a look at Nordhaven trawlers too. They are serious kit and many have transited the oceans on their own keel.
 
Interesting thread. It reminds me of our search about 6 years ago. I was looking for an aft cockpit Grand Banks style boat when my better half found Eos, our DeFever 48. She and the broker were both amused at how much time I spent in the walk in engine room taking pics and saying wow, fantastic etc for about half an hour! I'd never seen anything so clean and spacious, it was truly immaculate. Even more surprising considering it was even then about 20 years old. And it had newly fitted stabilisers, a real bonus, along with nearly new Nav gear, reupholstered seats, carpets etc. and if that wasn't enough, there were 4 huge access hatches in the engine room, which actually I'd almost forgotten about until just a month or so ago when I first needed that extra access when refitting a calorifier.

The stabs are in our opinion essential, without them she would roll like a pig. But with them we can walk around with a cup of tea in a good F5 and put it safely down on a table confident that it won't spill. We also have the benefit of a king sized bed in the aft cabin, as well as a small cockpit and a good sized lazarette, both an unexpected bonus.

We probably paid over the odds for her at the time, but for us it has been well worth it. Nothing major has failed or broken, working on the engines is a delight, we have the benefit of a dishwasher and microwave, and have added a washing machine and tumble drier. 400 gallon water tanks mean we can be independent of marinas for up to a month when we want to be (which is quite often), and 800 gallon fuel tanks means we can fill up cheaply in the CIs once a year.

We have spent anything up to 4 months aboard at one time and not felt cramped, and will do so again. She is comfortable, reliable and even though now 25 + years old she still looks good to my eyes. Yes, she is slow, we cruise at about 7kts but I enjoy being at sea and with the stabs it's not a chore.

So yes, for a trawler style boat, I'd definitely recommend going for one with stabs if you are planning on spending time at sea, the benefit is huge. Enjoy your search and I will be interested to see what you decide on.
 
Just a thought

TwoHooter,

Eventually, if you buy, you'll need to sell: might a boat with a birth year beginning with a 2 rather than a 1, be a better bet?


Good Luck,

John G
 
Thanks for all the replies. I can't tell you how useful it is for a newbie like me to have people to bounce ideas off.

@ Monique: I think estimates for refits are a complete waste of time, and we aren't going to be careful, we are just not going to do one. Concerning Nordhavns, we have been on board an N57 - now there's an engine room. Separate companionway down from salon, 6ft headroom around both sides of the main engine, 5ft around the wing engine and generators, space to spare for ancillary equipment, etc.
View attachment 51369

Sigh. If only. Sadly the only Ns we could afford would be a 46 or a 40. It's easy to be tempted by the long list of Ns on Yachtworld but when you add the 20% VAT for a non-EU boat it takes them out of our range. We are not so taken with the 46 because they really do need stabs and the only ones in our price range have paravanes, I know they work OK but we find them daunting. Hoping to see an N40 before too long, haven't seen one yet. I'm a bit bothered by the lack of a helm seat in the pilothouse.

@ longjohnsilver
I'm not totally focussed on the engine room, we have other things on our wish list too! But we are supposed to be boating for fun and it wouldn't be much fun if the boat has to be ripped apart to maintain an engine. I think what I am really looking for is a boat where I can say to myself, engine room and engines and other mechanicals are OK; great, now I can focus on the handling and the accommodation.

And yes, stabs are beginning to look like a "must have".

I'm surprised by the prices of the older Taiwan-built Defever 48s on Yachtworld - quite low. What are the later Chinese-built boats like?

@ Jegs - well, yes, but we are definitely in SKI mode.
 
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