Continuous Cruising

[TwoHooter]

My wife and I bought our first boat last year when we retired. We chose a motor-sailer rather than a motorboat. Now we actually own a boat instead of just looking at them the use we want to make of it isn't what we expected. We thought we would use it for a few days sailing every now and then but it turns out we would like to spend a lot more time on board. Therefore we need much more space. We are not going to be full-time live-aboards, but we might spend a couple of weeks at a time on the boat. And we don't want to stay in the same place. We want to "cruise continuously" - take the boat somewhere new every few months, around the UK at first, then further afield. Short-term berths seem to be available almost everywhere nowadays. We still have a lot to learn but I have got RYA Day Skipper and my wife is RYA Competent Crew and we are coping well with navigation, boat handling, maintenance etc., so cruising is a practical proposition.

We really don't like the "Go-faster" style of most modern motorboats, and we are quite happy with slow motion, so we have been looking at trawlers, but there seems to be much better value for money in the Dutch steel boat market. But which ones are seaworthy? I'm not sure you can tell by just looking. Obviously some of them are limited to canals, but others seem to be offered as coastal cruising yachts. Anyone here got any experience of offshore cruising in a Dutch steel boat? Or any other ideas about what would make a good boat for continuous cruising in UK and other north European waters? We don't want to go fast. We do want to be warm and dry in the winter, and be able to get at everything that needs maintenance. All ideas welcome.

 

[Firefly625]

sounds a nice idea, but to give some accurate and sensible suggestions we need to know your budget?

 

[Whitelighter]

Have a look at the Elling E3

Cracking boat, Dutch but not steel and very practical. Done quite a few miles on one and they are like a tardis

 

[Imperial One]

Call me anytime for a chat about which Dutch boats are good at sea and which ones are less so.
We know our stuff as we have been selling Dutch boats for 20+ years now.
I can promise no sales pressure just honest advice, number on website if you want to call.
Mike.

 

[Trundlebug]

I wouldn't necessarily agree thet Dutch Steel boats are better value; I've found that steel boats tend to be more expensive, size for size than equivalent GRP.

I guess a lot depends on the age and size of boat you're looking at; perhaps for newer boats the choice is restricted to either Dutch steel or trawler style, so I can see your point.

But worth looking on eg Apollo Duck and put in your price, size and style criteria. Pilothouse or Wheelhouse cruisers will bring up plenty of choice in the type of thing you're looking for.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Call me anytime for a chat about which Dutch boats are good at sea and which ones are less so.

Mike this is an interesting subject and certainly something I would welcome your views on. I look at Dutch steel boats at boat shows and I find it difficult to distinguish the ones designed for inland cruising from the ones designed for offshore cruising. I know you don't want to sound like you're doing a sales job on us but how about giving us your thoughts openly on the forum rather than by PM to individuals?

 

[TwoHooter]

Budget

sounds a nice idea, but to give some accurate and sensible suggestions we need to know your budget?

Er, yes, quite right. It's all pointless waffle until there's a budget. Actually I can't promise it isn't pointless waffle anyway, budget or no budget. Might go right off the idea after seeing a few boats. So far we have only been on board 3 motor boats in our entire lives. We are just about as ignorant as they come. But we do know that, delightful as our current boat is, we want more space than any yacht can give us.

OK, all figures are pounds sterling, for a boat with a correctly documented VAT-paid status.

• Perhaps, just to get a flavour of the thing and try the idea out, we might spend £75 - £100k on something that is sort of half-right, provided we are confident we can sell it when we have more experience and are ready to trade up again. I very much doubt whether there is anything on the market below £75k which would tempt us. Perhaps I will get a pleasant surprise?
• Quite happy to spend £150k on a boat if we have a high degree of confidence that it will suit us.
• The most expensive boat we have considered so far has an asking price just under £300k - that would be a stretch for us, so much so we would have to sell our current boat before buying the next one. Also, I would get very jittery with numbers like that unless the vessel is on a registry where I can check there is no finance outstanding.

So the budget is £75 - £300k - obviously I've done the usual internet search but on Apolloduck for example there are over 1,000 boats returned from my search and life is too short to study every one (crikey, there are a lot of boats for sale, aren't there?).

 

[Trundlebug]

You need to think more in depth about size, age of vessel, and purchase price - as well as how far you are prepared to travel to purchase.

Putting some of these filters in will narrow your search numbers in Apollo Duck considerably - down to around 50 I would suggest.

 

[TwoHooter]

Have a look at the Elling E3

Cracking boat, Dutch but not steel and very practical. Done quite a few miles on one and they are like a tardis

Good suggestion. I had noticed the Elling E3, and I had a good lock at the pictures of this one. I like the single engine economy - less than 1 litre per mile is great.

But the galley and dinette are down below. On our little yacht we have a deck saloon with big windows - you can see out all the time while cooking, eating, or lounging. We always joke that we couldn't afford a house with the views we get on the boat. We wouldn't buy a boat with galley or dinette below.

And on the Elling maintenance looks like a bit of a nightmare. Everything you need to get at is tucked away behind panelling or furniture. Yes, there are lots of nifty access panels for getting at the obvious things (strainer, oil filter, principal connections to inverter, etc.). But how do you tension the belt on that Onan generator? How do you change the engine starter motor? Come to that, if the worst happens, how do you get the engine out?

On our current boat I can reach everything on the engine without being a contortionist, and almost everything else is easy to get at - house water system, space heater, etc. For the last 20 years I have run a machinery-intensive business and I know as a fact that everything breaks sooner or later. It's not whether it breaks or not that matters, it's whether you can get at it when it does break. I have read BartW's thread and the bit that horrified me was reading what had to be done to extract the broken engine. So I am very twitchy about that sort of thing.

 

[Erik C]

Have a look at these Dutch build boats. I have been on them and found them to be excellent in build and quality.

http://www.en.sturieryachts.nl/

 

[Imperial One]

Hi Mike, OK, I will, he says with some trepidation! As you know, I don't like doing this as some folk take an opinion as a personal attack, I always try to remain impartial and just try to do a good job based on honesty and an open approach. We all have different views and needs in a boat and this is only to be encouraged as we would never have the great industry we now enjoy.

Erik has just rightly pointed out Sturier. These are great boats but some of the early ones had very high bows and at sea you could not see anything under about 100 yards in front of the bows. The yard put this right on later boats after our feedback on the one we had been selling for them. A great builder, run by a great family but for us as a business, sadly, their output is too low to make it a viable offering. I always go and see them at the shows in Holland and will always happily recommend their boats as very good quality and proper sea boats.

Not all Dutch boats are steel. The Atlantic's are a classic example of this. You know them of course, look like a Broom but IMHO much better build quality and indeed many of the buyers of these were Broom owners who loved the aft cabin concept but wanted something a little better. That is NOT a bash at Brooms, they are also very good and we have sold many of them albeit mostly after p/x against Atlantics.

Many of the other Dutch boats are indeed hard chined boats and really designed for inland use with occasional trips to sea on calmer days. Obviously, due to their lower power units one would need to be conscious of currents and distance to be covered in the prevailing weather conditions as there is not more than 2 knots over the cruise speed to have in reserve to make a dash for cover! Again, if you can live with these restrictions and plan accordingly they will be OK. For more sea use, you need something with more HP and certainly consider Stabilisers as essential for comfort of the family on board.

Van der Valk are good especially the later ones and most of the steel ones have stabilisers fitted as well. The Aluminium ones go well at sea and are equally at home inland too. Their trawler range is also very comfortable and stabilised round bilged for economy but these are not an inexpensive option. Naturally there are many others such as Moonen and Mulder but these are at the top of the game.
IMHO most of the smaller, ie sub 50 foot, Dutch boats are primarily designed for inland and coastal use.

There are many good builders in Holland and it is important that you look very hard at the specification of the steel used as well as what is behind the panels. What has been used to paint it? Has it been acid etched and epoxied as well? Plus, for example, have they sprayed the steel against rusting and have they then applied foam to stop rattles transmitting through the boat and many other small but important things?

By and large the Dutch build good boats, it is part of their DNA, they have a long history of doing so and as we all know are great navigators and for a long time were up against us in trying to colonise the rest of the world - they could not have done this in poorly built ships!

There you go Mike, that's my two pennies worth based on 20+ years experience of Dutch boats - now watch the arguments start! Off to my trench I go.

 

[TwoHooter]

Just to say that I telephoned "Imperial One" (yet another Mike, me too) and he was most helpful.

I had a look at the Sturiers, this one might be worth thinking about if only there were more pictures - there's nothing showing the internal layout.

 

[Erik C]

Here's one with lots of pictures. You can also find a lot of them on YouTube.

http://www.elburgyachting.nl/sp/s4971en.htm?f=ixbaen.htm&st=21115&h=0

 

[paul salliss]

Have a look at the Elling E3

Cracking boat, Dutch but not steel and very practical. Done quite a few miles on one and they are like a tardis

Good call agree with the comments re Elling, nearly bought one myself

 

[oldgit]

Although you will almost certainly,in that price range,be looking at newer more modern boats,be aware that older steel boats come with a completely different set of problems to "mould and forget" fibreglass vessels.
Steel craft are notorious for corrosion starting from within and things can get serious before anything is obvious is spotted,usually some time after purchase.
A fresh coat of bilge paint can cover up a multitude of sins in hidden compartments..
Vital that whoever does your survey is well up to speed on steel boats..

 

[TwoHooter]

Here's one with lots of pictures. You can also find a lot of them on YouTube.

http://www.elburgyachting.nl/sp/s4971en.htm?f=ixbaen.htm&st=21115&h=0

Wow! Half a million quid above my budget, but still, Wow!
Two problems with boat buying I find.
First problem is budget creep. I start off looking at a nice little steel boat at 159k Euro, and the next moment I am salivating over a superyacht!
Second problem is that boat hunting makes me feel like a pauper. I start off with a nice comfortable feeling because I am lucky enough to be able to go out and look at nice boats. Ten minutes later I have seen something I would like to have but will never be able to afford and I feel poor all over again.
Just like house hunting really. Still, it's all good fun.

I look at Dutch steel boats at boat shows and I find it difficult to distinguish the ones designed for inland cruising from the ones designed for offshore cruising.

Thanks to some off-line advice I now have the answer to my original question and it's obvious really, at least for boats younger than 16 June 1998. I need EU RCD category B (Offshore) as a minimum, category A (Ocean) would be better. Simple really.

...be aware that older steel boats come with a completely different set of problems to "mould and forget" fibreglass vessels.
Steel craft are notorious for corrosion starting from within and things can get serious before anything is obvious is spotted,usually some time after purchase.
A fresh coat of bilge paint can cover up a multitude of sins in hidden compartments. Vital that whoever does your survey is well up to speed on steel boats..

I totally agree with that, especially the bit about steel boats rusting from the inside out. The killer is that if it gets a hold on the interior there is nothing you can do about it without destroying all the internal construction.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

First problem is budget creep.

Ha ha, no different to anyone else then! We all suffer from that. Don't forget though that, depending on the boat and the location, asking price is only a guide and many boats sell for well below their asking prices so if you see a boat you fancy and its well above your budget, try a low offer. You never know in today's market

I need EU RCD category B (Offshore) as a minimum, category A (Ocean) would be better. Simple really.

Well yes in principle thats correct but don't forget this. Some boatbuilders self certify their RCD category and whilst others may employ independent consultants to certify their boats, those consultants can only work with the data that is supplied to them by the builder. The other factor is that some builders are cautious of over certifying their boats whilst others use their RCD category as a marketing tool. So the RCD category is only a guide and don't assume necessarily that a Cat A boat is a whole lot more seaworthy than a Cat B

 

[TwoHooter]

Some boatbuilders self certify their RCD category

Doesn't the certification have to be done by an independent "Notified Body"? A friend of mine just built a Glen-L tug design (very nice boat but not quite what I am looking for) and had it certified; he told me a bit about the process. Seemed very thorough to me. He got cat B.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Doesn't the certification have to be done by an independent "Notified Body"? A friend of mine just built a Glen-L tug design (very nice boat but not quite what I am looking for) and had it certified; he told me a bit about the process. Seemed very thorough to me. He got cat B.

As I said it can be done by an independent body but not necessarily so and in any case, that body is reliant on technical and design info supplied by the builder

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Thanks Imperial One. I have admired the Sturier range too but you have confirmed what I thought in that it seems like a small business building only a few boats

Agree entirely about the Atlantics. Some of the interiors were exquisite which completely belied their plain looking exteriors. Who is building them now? When I first saw them, they were moulded in Holland and fitted out in Oundle by that ex-Fairline crowd or was it the other way round? Is that larger than life Holland Boat guy still around? What was his name? Eddie?

Yup, the VdV craft are indeed fine vessels indeed. What do you think about Privateer?