Contessa 26 vs Invicta 26

Little Rascal said:
And it's a good one.

Just at the moment two things are important to me - seagoing ability and budget - hence the choice...
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We bought a 30 year old Albin Vega in 2003 for £11,000. The same boat would be quite a bit cheaper now. After spending almost nothing and circumnavigating Ireland with some hassles we fitted new sails and a new engine. Since then we have been to the Canaries, Azores, Spain, and to Shetland and Norway (back three weeks ago from that last trip) in moderate comfort with very little worry and nothing much breaking or going wrong since the new engine. Next year we hope to go to Cornwall and Brittany (from Scotland).

Many other people have had similar value from old boats. Jonjo was obviously unlucky. If funds are limited and you want to go to sea you know what to do. Good luck, I hope you find a nice boat.

- W
 
Little Rascal said:
And it's a good one.

Just at the moment two things are important to me - seagoing ability and budget - hence the choice...
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But I think what you are being advised is that there is not a lot to choose between them on the first criterion. On the second, budget, again not a lot of REAL difference. When you are looking at 30 year old boats in the price range that these command the initial purchase price difference can be illusory. The key things are condition and equipment when items such as new sails at up to 20% value and engines at 40% can make a low purchase price bad value. Remember the purchase price is only the entry fee to more expenditure and paying a bit more for a good boat can significantly reduce ongoing expenditure.

The figure that concentrates the mind is what the boat will cost to get it operational to the standard you want in the place you want it - not the headline purchase cost.
 
webcraft said:
We bought a 30 year old Albin Vega in 2003 for £11,000. The same boat would be quite a bit cheaper now. After spending almost nothing and circumnavigating Ireland with some hassles we fitted new sails and a new engine. Since then we have been to the Canaries, Azores, Spain, and to Shetland and Norway
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On a cost v. voyaging reward measure you are way up there on the leaders board, but by your own admission I think I am seeing another £10k of expenditure? Many buyers of an £11k yacht do not realize this is what it takes to make an aging yacht offshore trustworthy again.

The MAB purchase experince process works for some if they have time and a 5-10 year outlook, can keep the boat close by and enjoy DIY.

webcraft said:
Jonjo was obviously unlucky.
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Not unluky. I watched an old Nicholson drop from £40k in Holland over 9 months, bought her for £21k. Sailed her back home in stages after a £1k refit. Spent the rest of the summer working up an every increasing refit plan.

I only had 3 days sailing after the delivery, then bailed at a small profit at the end of summer. It was a salutary lesson, everything is knackered or suspect on a 30 year old yacht given no interim investment.

The new owner is happy, the temporary external bolted metal pads fitted as a get me home measure and to prevent the loose rudder stock poking out of the side of the rudder moulding are still there 8 years later, he been all around the place, he got a new replacement rig on insurance after a rigging failure.

Old boats work for some with time and an appropriate attitude to risk.
 
Looking at Halcyons:

Seem to have the edge on size and accomodation but not sure about the wooden cockpit sides/fore hatch/companion hatch garage. I have no idea not having seen one but what are the chances of that being damaged in a real screamer offshore?
 
jonjo5 said:
On a cost v. voyaging reward measure you are way up there on the leaders board, but by your own admission I think I am seeing another £10k of expenditure? Many buyers of an £11k yacht do not realize this is what it takes to make an aging yacht offshore trustworthy again.
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We managed to get round Ireland with the boat pretty much as we bought her except for new rigging and a liferaft, but we realised we would need to spend more ikf we wanted to go further and worry less. Outr total expenditure has probably been closer to £20k (but certainly not more) - which I regard as excellent value for money considering the trips we have made.

However, if I was doing it again I would look for a boat where someone else had already replaced the sails and engine - this would be a much more cost-effective option.

- W
 
jonjo5 said:
I only had 3 days sailing after the delivery, then bailed at a small profit at the end of summer. It was a salutary lesson, everything is knackered or suspect on a 30 year old yacht given no interim investment.
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I think those last four words are the key, and are why some of us think you are a bit harsh on older boats. Sure, if nothing has been done to them for thirty years then problems are likely, but if they have been properly used and maintained I wouldn't be worried.

I looked at a much more convenient Victoria 26 before I bought Jumblie. I walked away from that because of maintenance issues - there were several things I didn't like the look of at all; the rigging was ten years old and would therefore have needed replaced (£850, ker-ching) to keep the insurers happy and the sails were original, around 25 years old. Jumblie has two year old rigging and five year old sails ...

Sure, there's a wee bit more work involved in an older boat - but the cost of the alternator, starter and anchor chain I've fitted are tiny compared to the additional interest (or opportunity cost) in buying a much newer boat.

For some people, of course, "new" or "newish" is the right decision and I wouldn't criticise that choice for a minute. For those of us happy to do a bit more work, a well maintained older boat can be a great solution too.

It's a symbiotic relationship: without the new brigade the used brigade would have nothing to buy and without the used brigade the new brigade would have to keep their boats for ever ...
 
There's a lot of sense been posted on this thread. As pointed out the subtle differences between 30 and 40 year old marques is, to an extent, splitting hairs. Condition is far more important.

Most have had the original engine replaced by now. That was my experience when I was shopping around.
Questions to ask are: Who installed it? Amateur or pro? Was it a recon job or new? What else was replaced? Fuel tank? Exhaust system? etc.

Is the mast and boom original? If not was it replaced with new, or 'something similar' off another boat? What state is the mast in? Many have been shortened due to corrosion at the heel, or sleeved due to corrosion at the spreaders. Again, I saw all this while shopping around.

Unless the seller can produce receipts proving the standing rigging is less than 15 years old (or so) your insurer may insist you replace it, or exclude rig failure from the policy.

The above are the big budget items, in percentage terms, of an older boat. And all assume the hull is structurally sound, albeit probably scruffy.

So, if a previous owner has sorted out all these big budget items, and done it properly, you can benefit from his investment as the money spent will not be reflected in the boats resale value.
 
Contessa, Invicta, cutlass and vega all good sailing boats but quite cramped below. Have a look at Sabre 27- good ballast ratio, well built, albeit some home completed so inside set up/quality varies. 6ft headroom in saloon, large chart table- both important imo. Also very good owners assoc- google Sabre 27.
 
Porthandbuoy said:
So, if a previous owner has sorted out all these big budget items, and done it properly, you can benefit from his investment as the money spent will not be reflected in the boats resale value.
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Exactly, I managed to buy my current boat at around half it's 'sorted' going price. I knew exactly what I wanted when I bought it - newish sails and a decent trailer. I'm now in the comfortable (ish) position of tinkering about with sprucing up the boat - knowing that I will get most of what I spend back when the time comes to sell.

However this has gone way off topic...

Any more Contessa/Invicta/Halcyon/Vega owners doing any high lattitude cruising out there?
 
Porthandbuoy said:
Most have had the original engine replaced by now. That was my experience when I was shopping around.
Questions to ask are: Who installed it? Amateur or pro? Was it a recon job or new? What else was replaced? Fuel tank? Exhaust system? etc.
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A better question is: Cowboy or competent? I installed my own engine but got a 'professional' to align it. He utterly screwed it up and I had to do it again myself. Everything else is fine after 5 years and nearly 10,000 miles.

When we bought the boat the 30 year old Volvo MD6a had had £3000 spent on it, with receipts and all the work done by a yard. The owner seemed to think this increased the value of the boat, but I demurred - and quite rightly as it turned out. The engine was useless and finished, and that £3k had been an utter waste of money.

A lot of very well maintained boats are entirely owner-maintained, a lot of bodges happen in yards or are done by 'professionals'

I think the main requirements when buying a 30 year old boat are to expect trouble, know what to look for and expect to have to spend a substantial percentage of the purchase price again. There are some great boats to be had, but yard receipts don't usually carry a guarantee and surveys aren't always worth the money on cheap old boats.

I bought ours because she appeared structurally sound and the interior was pretty and well maintained. (And she was only 3 hours away). Making a tatty interior pretty again would probably have been harder for me than bringing her up to spec for offshore passagemaking. We have never regretted our choice.

(Although if I could afford it another five feet would be nice . . . )

- W
 
Halcyon 27........More internal volume and more standing room than both the Contessa and the Invicta but as you have noticed more wood needing more work. Sails beautifully.

I think the point being made about the condition of the low cost old boats is very important.

I have renewed both the standing and running rigging, installed some new electronics, new toerails, new anchor, and a lot more: I reckon I have spent at least an extra 50% of the £8K I paid for the boat.

Still, c.£12K, when compared to other newer boats, does not seem too much for a boat capable of going so far. ( In a small cramped sometimes damp sort of way )
 
webcraft said:
... and the interior was pretty and well maintained. (And she was only 3 hours away). Making a tatty interior pretty again would probably have been harder for me than bringing her up to spec....

- W
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Wise words. Ignore the rest of the boat and look below. Better still take a woman with you.
Much of the rest, rig, sails, engine is just a matter of spending cash. A grubby, wet, smelly cabin is far more difficult.
Whilst we are off the subject, can I throw Mariholms into the mix? The International Folkboat (100% GRP) is a fine boat but small below. Better, though difficult to find, is the M26. Same hull as the IF boat but more room inside; that would be my pick.
 
No need for a dirty old interior: a bit of paint, some varnish, recover the cushions etc.
These boats are so small that it is not a great deal of work or a great expense to tidy them up. (but even then they are still small and basic)

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I have a Halcyon 27 from 1969. It has the original Sabb H which is not a bad thing. These are very robust and simple engines. There is a bit more wood to take care of its true but I don't think the cockpit combings are a weakness. The invicta is more flat bottomed than the halcyon which is why the halcyon has so much more head room. The saloon floor of the Halcyon is quite narrow.
In general I think the condition is probably the most important thing. I wouldn't swap my Halcyon for any of the others but I am 6 foot 5!
 
Another (relatively) high-latitude Vega owner here. Most Vega owners seem to be in love with their boats. The space certainly works well- this is only our first year but we've done a couple of week-long cruises with two adults and two large dogs, no problems. Key is to utilise the massive cockpit lockers properly. We also have a cockpit tent which is an absolute godsend and doubles up as somewhere to have a shower. It helps to be short- both of us are under 5'6.
I was initially not too impressed with the boat's speed but thanks to a new genoa and some input from a much better sailor who helmed her around a race recently, my eyes have been opened to what she can do. Under my own efforts I've managed an hour of 7kt+ whilst broad-reaching across the Minch... we hit 7.8kt once too... pretty impressive stuff.

The boat itself is nearly 40 years old, but had had a brand new engine and associated gear professionally fitted. New standing rigging was less than £500 inc bottlescrews. Even outside of the major items, there's still lots to be spent, though- little things like new sheets, warps, all add up to make the boat more pleasant to use. When it's small amounts of money you don't seem to mind quite so much though!
 
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