Container vessel abandoned mid atlantic.

[Seajet]

On the other hand if they blow up a few more containerships in the same way the stuff won't get shipped.

Something went seriously wrong here and that does really need to be sorted out fastish. At the moment if I was shippin bulk stuff I might well start asking questions about some of the other cargo near my boxes. Just look at the way airfreight has gone, I used to have trouble getting kit designed and approved to be fitted to aircraft shipped by air

Well, if this cargo had been on a 747 it would be distinctly more unpopular !

So why put photo's of a different incident on the report, more to the point is Flaminia carrying nasties or not ?

I'd expect the right / wrong terminology could make out a pedalo to be carrying dangerous cargo, and innocent but volatile stuff has to be moved somehow - on the other hand if it's true that uninspected containers are a loophole in shifting arms etc then this might be a welcome wake up call, though the two crew already dead might not entirely agree.

 

[Habebty]

I don't understand the paranoia over this one. A ship carrying 8-10000 boxes of stuff around the world has 170 odd boxes of dangerous stuff on it - don't they all? - and probably a refrigerated box's fridge catches fire spreading to a nearby tank box of something flammable which in turn sets of a chain reaction of fires amongst all the flammable stuff, chemicals etc.
Every time I go out past Felixstowe I see loads of tank boxes on deck carrying god knows what. Trainloads of Hazchem tanks and boxes go past my office every day. I guess you only hear about them when they catch fire.

If I was a Channel bordering state, I would some assurance there was no risk of a chemical cocktail sludge ending up on my beaches, or toxic fumes blowing over a dockside community.
Who wants another Napoli to deal with either?

No more sinister than a dodgy chemical mess to clean up.

Possibly

 

[maxi77]

I don't understand the paranoia over this one. A ship carrying 8-10000 boxes of stuff around the world has 170 odd boxes of dangerous stuff on it - don't they all? - and probably a refrigerated box's fridge catches fire spreading to a nearby tank box of something flammable which in turn sets of a chain reaction of fires amongst all the flammable stuff, chemicals etc.
Every time I go out past Felixstowe I see loads of tank boxes on deck carrying god knows what. Trainloads of Hazchem tanks and boxes go past my office every day. I guess you only hear about them when they catch fire.

If I was a Channel bordering state, I would some assurance there was no risk of a chemical cocktail sludge ending up on my beaches, or toxic fumes blowing over a dockside community.
Who wants another Napoli to deal with either?

No more sinister than a dodgy chemical mess to clean up.

Possibly

If there was not a problem why did the lot explode and go on fire, the crew abandon an otherwise seaworthy ship, the salvage crew abandon ship several times and several countries very cautious about allowing the ship near shore until the risks were clearly reduced. Carriage of hazardous goods is normal but it needs to be done in a safe manner, the reality of this ship would appear to show that it was not done in a safe manner in this case

 

[Seajet]

I'm not saying it was the case here as we don't have the info', but I can easily imagine a skipper being the only person aware of what's in the cargo, unhappy about it but under pressure from owners to take it.

So when things go pear-shaped they get the crew off quick.

This has happened ever since sailing ships first took cargo anywhere, and probably the reason behind the 'mystery' of the Marie Celeste !

 

[penfold]

On the container ship I was on the manifest was on the ship's PC in the tally room, which was available to everyone(except George, but he wasn't allowed beer or sharp objects either).

 

[Giblets]

On the container ship I was on the manifest was on the ship's PC in the tally room, which was available to everyone(except George, but he wasn't allowed beer or sharp objects either).

Ahh, but how did you know that what was on the manifest was what was actually in the boxes?

 

[maxi77]

I'm not saying it was the case here as we don't have the info', but I can easily imagine a skipper being the only person aware of what's in the cargo, unhappy about it but under pressure from owners to take it.

So when things go pear-shaped they get the crew off quick.

This has happened ever since sailing ships first took cargo anywhere, and probably the reason behind the 'mystery' of the Marie Celeste !

I do apreciate the problem of the master wanting to keep his job, On the other hand if he knew there was a temperature sensitive hazardous container sitting on top of a reefer box with the risk of fire should he have kept quiet. I do appreciate the reality is until the fire actually happens the right thing for the master is to keep quiet. This is why whistle blowers need not just to be protected but honoured so that decent companies will want to employ them.

Owners have always had the drop on Masters but we really do need to see this change if we want to see safety at sea improve.

 

[onenyala]

What happened to Mate's Receipts ?

 

[Seajet]

Whistle blowers

I do apreciate the problem of the master wanting to keep his job, On the other hand if he knew there was a temperature sensitive hazardous container sitting on top of a reefer box with the risk of fire should he have kept quiet. I do appreciate the reality is until the fire actually happens the right thing for the master is to keep quiet. This is why whistle blowers need not just to be protected but honoured so that decent companies will want to employ them.

Owners have always had the drop on Masters but we really do need to see this change if we want to seesafety at sea improve.

Going public, or even arguing with bosses, is not that simple !

In my time, a pilot was killed by a fault.

A supremely experienced pilot stood up to the CEO, and for being decent got s****y treatment until he said 'up yours' and left ( he still has a great reputation, no-one would employ that CEO to sharpen pencils for them ! ).

The company tried to hold back the insurance payment and call it 'Pilot Error'.

I was photographer on the Board of Inquiry and learned more about the ejection seat than I'd been briefed on similar seats when flying; it soon became clear it was no way pilot error.

The widow of the dead pilot was faced with twelve hot shot lawyers a time against her one, but after 5 years I'm delighted to say she won, the money wasn't really the issue but she used it to put their children through good schools.

In the meantime I'd photographed all the problems and modifications relative to the accident.

One day all these photo's were seized and put into a managers' safe.

If I'd known about the battle the widow was having I'd have gladly given her the negative numbers !

I met the pilots' brother years later after an article I wrote, he and the family hadn't even been told of the memorials to his brother, so he was able to get his brothers' widow and mother in to see them.

I'm quite sure if I'd known and 'blown the whistle' I'd have been threatened with the Official Secrets Act, equally sure I'd have helped his widow Maggie somehow anyway !

Andy

www.harrier.org.uk/history scroll down to 'Harrier Testing'.

 

[maxi77]

Going public, or even arguing with bosses, is not that simple !

In my time, a pilot was killed by a fault.

A supremely experienced pilot stood up to the CEO, and for being decent got s****y treatment until he said 'up yours' and left ( he still has a great reputation, no-one would employ that CEO to sharpen pencils for them ! ).

The company tried to hold back the insurance payment and call it 'Pilot Error'.

I was photographer on the Board of Inquiry and learned more about the ejection seat than I'd been briefed on similar seats when flying; it soon became clear it was no way pilot error.

The widow of the dead pilot was faced with twelve hot shot lawyers a time against her one, but after 5 years I'm delighted to say she won, the money wasn't really the issue but she used it to put their children through good schools.

In the meantime I'd photographed all the problems and modifications relative to the accident.

One day all these photo's were seized and put into a managers' safe.

If I'd known about the battle the widow was having I'd have gladly given her the negative numbers !

I met the pilots' brother years later after an article I wrote, he and the family hadn't even been told of the memorials to his brother, so he was able to get his brothers' widow and mother in to see them.

I'm quite sure if I'd known and 'blown the whistle' I'd have been threatened with the Official Secrets Act, equally sure I'd have helped his widow Maggie somehow anyway !

Andy

www.harrier.org.uk/history scroll down to 'Harrier Testing'.

Yes life is hard and especially hard for the whistleblower hence my comments about not jus changing the legal status but also the public staus so that whistleblowers actually become prefered employees rather than unemployable

 

[nigel1]

What happened to Mate's Receipts ?

If you cannot see the condition of the cargo, its not worth bothering with mates receipts I guess.

 

[Seajet]

Shouldn't this be in the Lounge ?!

Yes life is hard and especially hard for the whistleblower hence my comments about not jus changing the legal status but also the public staus so that whistleblowers actually become prefered employees rather than unemployable

maxi77,

that sounds a lovely idea but I haven't a clue how to make it happen !

After I left BAe - and got divorced as soon as my money ran out - I went through a few jobs grabbing whatever I could just to pay the bills.

I found the lower paid one is, the worst treatment one gets, when one might expect it to be the opposite; I'm not going to give my life and soul to a company paying peanuts !

Also there were 2 drug dealers and one sicko with paedophile fantasies at one place; I'd love to report him but what do I say without evidence ?

These low life companies also - every one of them - had scum bullies, usually on drugs, as lower management; some of the workers were conditioned to think this was normal treatment but I just picked up my things and walked out.

I went self employed, reasoning 'if I'm going to work for a berk it might as well be me' and have never regretted it for a second !

 

[maxi77]

maxi77,

that sounds a lovely idea but I haven't a clue how to make it happen !

After I left BAe - and got divorced as soon as my money ran out - I went through a few jobs grabbing whatever I could just to pay the bills.

I found the lower paid one is, the worst treatment one gets, when one might expect it to be the opposite; I'm not going to give my life and soul to a company paying peanuts !

Also there were 2 drug dealers and one sicko with paedophile fantasies at one place; I'd love to report him but what do I say without evidence ?

These low life companies also - every one of them - had scum bullies, usually on drugs, as lower management; some of the workers were conditioned to think this was normal treatment but I just picked up my things and walked out.

I went self employed, reasoning 'if I'm going to work for a berk it might as well be me' and have never regretted it for a second !

Hey the concept is easy, I know making it work is difficult. Even in big companies there is bullying of all sorts, especially when the bi-annual head count cut comes round as I know only too well, especially when your boss feals inferior to you. Had thee shirt several times. At the end of the day whistle blowers need even more protection than is given to race and sex discrimination, and need guaranteed pay outs from the companies they used to work for.

 

[penfold]

Ahh, but how did you know that what was on the manifest was what was actually in the boxes?

You don't. In the fullness of time perhaps affordable sensor systems will arrive that can assess containers as they come in the dock gates in real time, but at the moment even weighing the damn things is still not done much. Boxes over tare weight regularly cause stack collapses and kill either stevedores or mariners, but the relevant authorities don't care much.

 

[Plomong]

Boxes over tare weight regularly . . .

Surely you mean Max Wt, or am I missing something ???

Plomong

 

[penfold]

Surely you mean Max Wt, or am I missing something ???

Plomong

Nope, you're right; mea culpa. Max. SWL is what I meant.

 

[maxi77]

You don't. In the fullness of time perhaps affordable sensor systems will arrive that can assess containers as they come in the dock gates in real time, but at the moment even weighing the damn things is still not done much. Boxes over tare weight regularly cause stack collapses and kill either stevedores or mariners, but the relevant authorities don't care much.

What about a weighbridge, readily available and used by many companies to check loads in and out of factories. VOSA even deploy portable ones to check lorry weights on the road so I would suggest not checking is a cop out, equally load cells in cranes are commomplace to check for potential overload situations so one suspects overweight containers could be identified before loading. One might wonder quite how the mate does his stability calcs if he does not know the weight of the boxes he is loading

 

[sarabande]

the core issue is not so much weight, but truth about the contents, though I can well imagine that unscrupulous shippers might wish to cram overloads of kit into each container.

 

[spearhead]

Change of routine

Back to topic.

MSC Flaminia with escorts Fairmount Expedition and Carlo Magno appears to be crossing the SW-bound main shipping lane in mid-channel, presumably in order to join the NE-bound lane: see marinetraffic.com.

Anglian Sovereign seems to have disappeared out of range.

Perhaps the end is in sight for some very bored crews? And some interesting containers can be opened soon......

 

[sarabande]

I note that the CG has engineered a very useful gap of about 10 miles in the traffic stream.

Clearly they don't any form of collision