Considering a Cat

[RichardS]

See first post ��

First post?

Richard

 

[SiteSurfer]

Life is easy

Wow! The only time I've been close to that speed was when Sea Start gave us a tow!
I see that the leeward hull is digging in a bit more than the windward hull, that's I assume the difference between a modern cat and the older caravans that I am contemplating, do you have to look at wind speeds and adjust rig accordingly? I suppose you have some form of mental spreadsheet which tells you when to decrease the sail area?

 

[SiteSurfer]

First post?

Richard

Where I explained about the crew and their capabilities, in fact since I posted originally I've had the older daughter out a lot more and she's improving - now down to half a tablet and instead of being knocked out for hours seems to be able to cope a little better. Somewhat annoyed though that her doctor dismissed the scoplameine saying she'd never heard of it (despite my daughter showing it to her on her phone!) - current drug is a doozy, hence why we are battling to decrease doses and increase exposure to try and get some semblance of normality back for her.

Younger daughter is fast approaching dramatic teenager country (still helms like a pro though).

 

[Tomahawk]

Wow! The only time I've been close to that speed was when Sea Start gave us a tow!
I see that the leeward hull is digging in a bit more than the windward hull, that's I assume the difference between a modern cat and the older caravans that I am contemplating, do you have to look at wind speeds and adjust rig accordingly? I suppose you have some form of mental spreadsheet which tells you when to decrease the sail area?

To be fair, tomahawk is a sports car of a boat. They have been called the Porsche of the seas, (I prefer Lotus of the seas). There is bugger all space downstairs as the hulls are only 1m wide at max beam. But with a 12m waterline that gives a wonderful Renauld number. She also has a wing mast and lightweight dagger boards.

Saling at that speed is actually quite easy. There are only ever the two of us on board. The biggest issue is tiredness as the decks are constantly moving.. You can see it on the film. As to when to reef, it's when before you feel she is no longer accelerating with the gusts and she starts to feel heavy. She surfs like a demon and when going down wind you are quickly into fine reaching as the apparent shifts forward.

And yes we both love her.

 

[geem]

I would forget about this "over-loading" stuff. Our cat has tanks for 400L of fuel and 800L of water, which is a phenomenal load of well over a ton ...... but which makes no discernible difference to her height in the water because that's what she is designed for.

She is also designed to carry 10 people plus all their luggage whereas we usually have 3 or 4 on board. Work out the weight of those missing 6 or 7 people and their stuff and you can see why, even when we are all aboard, there is still no visible change in height. In fact, the tip of our bow is just above the water unless we get really loaded up.

Unless you intend to race your boat, I reckon you could carry 50% more than a same length monohull on a cruising cat without even noticing the difference.

The problem for the monohull is that it's already encumbered by several tons of metal underneath it so there not much latitude left up top. :encouragement:

Richard

Not all cats are the same and not all monohull are the same so your generalisation doesn't work. Plenty of high performance cats will not take weight well. Clearly yours will. I speak as an ex cat owner. Our current monohull is built as an expedition boat. It combines great performance with load lugging ability. We have an 800 l water tank and 450 litre fuel tank. We carry a lot of gear and supplies as it is often several weeks between supermarkets. Although we are loaded we are on the original marks.
On a small cat overloading is a common mistake. They won't take the weight well. Performance suffers but the biggest problem is the potential for structural failure in big seas. It happens, as by definition, most cats are lightly built and their shape isn't optimised for strength in large waves, unlike a monohull.

 

[SiteSurfer]

What I'm trying to ascertain is "what" folks are overloading with, what do people take that weighs so much that it affects the craft.
Are we talking about some extra luggage or are we talking about stores for 3 weeks plus half a house contents?

It's difficult I know to quantify, but surely 4 people, the bare minimum clothes and shopping every few days isn't going to overload, trying to understand the original design plan if thats the case. I have to assume that they didnt come with the things that we take for granted now such as blown air heating, calorifiers, 240V circuits and so forth.

If as I suspect, this is more about long-term cruising than pottering then I have nothing to be concerned about.

 

[Mikedefieslife]

Why is there talk about overloading rather than just loading. Obviously overloading anything is bad. loading something to within its design parameters isn't bad. I think sometimes people ignore that.

Batteries, water, people are the heaviest loads on a cat. Most cats are designed to have at least four people or more on board, so if you are a solo sailor or couple you've saved 160kg just there. Friends, family, wife, husband, children, they're all optional right?

 

[geem]

Why is there talk about overloading rather than just loading. Obviously overloading anything is bad. loading something to within its design parameters isn't bad. I think sometimes people ignore that.

Batteries, water, people are the heaviest loads on a cat. Most cats are designed to have at least four people or more on board, so if you are a solo sailor or couple you've saved 160kg just there. Friends, family, wife, husband, children, they're all optional right?

A good starting point is, is the cat on its original waterline? In my experience most are not. If you are deeper than the design waterline then you are over loaded. We see small Prouts with huge s/s monkey bars supporting large tenders and engines, solar panels, wind turbines etc. They were never designed to do this and they have little buoyancy in the sterns to take this kind of weight. Add kayaks windsurfers, etc plus all the accumulated junk below and you soon get overloaded.
We used to have a Snowgoose 37. We made great efforts to keep it light. Very few other Prouts we see do this. We had no spray hood, no davits, no monkey bars. We usually only filled one water tank. On a Snowgoose if you have empty fuel and water tanks the impact on the sailing performance is very noticeable. The boat sails faster and feels more lively. Ours in full cruising trim weighed 5.3tonnes. Fuel and water was only 1/3 tonne but without it it made a big difference. Hope this helps

 

[Channel Sailor]

I have owned two what is now older style catamarans based broadly in the Solent area. I currently own a monohull in the Solent area. Keeping this post short, my view would be:
Are Catamarans good for just Solent cruising, No.
Does the motion result in a cure for seasickness, no. But I think the problem is reduced.
Do you get anything much for £20k, I would say no. Unless very lucky I would say you get a load of maintenance hassle and expensive storage fees on top.

Reference other posts here. I think Catamarans of certain designs are the bees knees for cruising. Comfortable for mile after mile, hour after hour, day after day cruising. Plenty of space. Fast passage maker. Safe, they do not sink. No pole needed for a spinnaker. Safe, because they can be crewed and managed more easily without too much effort. Excellent for young children and teenage family sailing. Shallow draft. Comfortable and fast, or have I said that already.

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

A good starting point is, is the cat on its original waterline? In my experience most are not. If you are deeper than the design waterline then you are over loaded. We see small Prouts with huge s/s monkey bars supporting large tenders and engines, solar panels, wind turbines etc. They were never designed to do this and they have little buoyancy in the sterns to take this kind of weight. Add kayaks windsurfers, etc plus all the accumulated junk below and you soon get overloaded.
We used to have a Snowgoose 37. We made great efforts to keep it light. Very few other Prouts we see do this. We had no spray hood, no davits, no monkey bars. We usually only filled one water tank. On a Snowgoose if you have empty fuel and water tanks the impact on the sailing performance is very noticeable. The boat sails faster and feels more lively. Ours in full cruising trim weighed 5.3tonnes. Fuel and water was only 1/3 tonne but without it it made a big difference. Hope this helps

That's four persons for three weeks. I think that what the OP has in mind is much shorter trips and so that replenishing stocks (i.e. weight stowed) should not be a problem.
There are items that can be considered: Shorts instead of long pants. Small number of polo shirts; think layers. No formal clothing, including dress shoes, for dining out unless absolutely unavoidable. Minimum cooking utensils, crockery, cutlery. Minimalist tool-kit. Bare minimum of mooring lines. (Do they need to be so thick?). Do you need to keep cans of varnish and paint - especially AF - in that locker? Etc., etc., etc.
You'd be surprised how quickly things can add up!

 

[SiteSurfer]

That's four persons for three weeks. I think that what the OP has in mind is much shorter trips and so that replenishing stocks (i.e. weight stowed) should not be a problem.
There are items that can be considered: Shorts instead of long pants. Small number of polo shirts; think layers. No formal clothing, including dress shoes, for dining out unless absolutely unavoidable. Minimum cooking utensils, crockery, cutlery. Minimalist tool-kit. Bare minimum of mooring lines. (Do they need to be so thick?). Do you need to keep cans of varnish and paint - especially AF - in that locker? Etc., etc., etc.
You'd be surprised how quickly things can add up!

Brilliant! So my flipflops and boat boats are safe Do people really take formal clothing sailing? I must be missing something.
I think my current aversion to weight on the monohull will carry over nicely.

 

[SiteSurfer]

I have owned two what is now older style catamarans based broadly in the Solent area. I currently own a monohull in the Solent area. Keeping this post short, my view would be:
Are Catamarans good for just Solent cruising, No.
Does the motion result in a cure for seasickness, no. But I think the problem is reduced.
Do you get anything much for £20k, I would say no. Unless very lucky I would say you get a load of maintenance hassle and expensive storage fees on top.

Reference other posts here. I think Catamarans of certain designs are the bees knees for cruising. Comfortable for mile after mile, hour after hour, day after day cruising. Plenty of space. Fast passage maker. Safe, they do not sink. No pole needed for a spinnaker. Safe, because they can be crewed and managed more easily without too much effort. Excellent for young children and teenage family sailing. Shallow draft. Comfortable and fast, or have I said that already.

Thank you for the insight into local usage. I'm quite happy to do work on the boat - I'm one of those odd ones that actually quite likes spending weekend after weekend in the winter ripping various chunks out of the boat. My current boat went from 'basic' to 'quite nice' over the course of 3 years, with a rolling refit and I've enjoyed every moment - allthough changing the water and sanitation system in our recent 30 degree heatwave was a test of character. I've also manufactured a fridge, installed blown air heating, added a complete 240V circuit, re-upholstered the seats and so forth - so for me, thats part of the fun of boat ownership. I don't want a wreck - but I am not expecting perfection for my budget.

The biggest factor is my wife, she's keen but not too stable or agile. I'll sacrifice a lot just to have her on board. The daughter's seasickness we can work on

 

[stephen_h]

There are plenty of older cats, that you are looking at, sailing around the solent.
We had a HT27 with hot water, hot air heating, davits with a dingy. We did have an outboard which kept weight down.
The point is that for what you want to do and where you are sailing a cat is ideal and there are plenty doing it.
Different if you are distance cruising but even then the HT's have circumnavigated:encouragement:
There are also plenty of places where you can dry out in that area which the kids will love! Go for it!!

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

Brilliant! So my flipflops and boat boats are safe Do people really take formal clothing sailing? I must be missing something.
I think my current aversion to weight on the monohull will carry over nicely.

When visiting foreign clubs they frequently host a dinner where dress is usually "smart casual" but there are still some clubs where they still hang on to their tradition of drills, blazers, cravats etc., sometimes even dinner jackets! I try my best to avoid them but sometimes it can't be avoided. Since I retired I have even stopped wearing a tie or a jacket unless it is a wedding, a funeral or similar formal function.
Re flip-flops, because of my age I stopped wearing flip-flops on deck and switched to deck shoes; I find them safer.

 

[SiteSurfer]

but there are still some clubs where they still hang on to their tradition of drills, blazers, cravats etc., sometimes even dinner jackets! I try my best to avoid them

Ah. Ok.
I haven't got the courage up to visit any yacht clubs yet (except Seaview), pretty much exactly due to the above!
It's only going to be a short leap and this could turn into an anchor thread.

 

[Channel Sailor]

Thank you for the insight into local usage. I'm quite happy to do work on the boat - I'm one of those odd ones that actually quite likes spending weekend after weekend in the winter ripping various chunks out of the boat. My current boat went from 'basic' to 'quite nice' over the course of 3 years, with a rolling refit and I've enjoyed every moment - allthough changing the water and sanitation system in our recent 30 degree heatwave was a test of character. I've also manufactured a fridge, installed blown air heating, added a complete 240V circuit, re-upholstered the seats and so forth - so for me, thats part of the fun of boat ownership. I don't want a wreck - but I am not expecting perfection for my budget.

The biggest factor is my wife, she's keen but not too stable or agile. I'll sacrifice a lot just to have her on board. The daughter's seasickness we can work on

MK2 Iroquois is the one for you then. Level decks on the fwd sections, narrow but level side decks with decent handrails to help, low freeboard aft to aid boarding from dinghy or pontoon, roomy cockpit with level walk through to bridge deck cabin, steps down to hulls inside have plenty of hand holds and are safe to go down, when seated in the saloon you have an almost all around view the horizon, it’s fast, easy to handle, not very large sails, seperate Heads. Easy to reef at the mast, perfectly adequate petrol outboard. They are old so probably loads of serious refurbishment and maintenance needed. At least budget for brand new decent sails ( to reduce heeling moment) with three reefs in the mainsail. It is narrow so storage costs ashore reduced, but conversely narrow means there is increased capsize risk which you need to be aware of.

If more budget, maybe a Sagitta.
Good luck.

 

[alahol2]

MK2 Iroquois is the one for you then.

As I mentioned in an earlier post we sailed an Iroquois IIA for 13 years while our two boys grew up. For us it was the ideal boat for a family. Everything that Channel sailor says.
I would feel uneasy about recommending it despite our experience. The person who bought it from us capsized it within 10 miles of setting off, and this was in the Solent. No one has really been able to explain it. Luckily no injuries to the four crew. This was the second time it had been capsized.
Maybe you can understand my reticence.
If the OPs wife/family got wind of the aforegoing or any of the other Iroquois capsizes the OP could end up with an expensive singlehanded cat.

 

[Channel Sailor]

Yep, very valid point by alahol2. They are not for the inexperienced. But I suppose being on the sea in a small boat is not for the inexperienced anyway. Maybe if the owner sailed it as if it was a much smaller yacht then the risk we are talking about here are in effect removed. Plus it will not sink.

The Sagitta is more stable, probably would cost twice as much and rare.

 

[SiteSurfer]

I am in the unfortunate position of having accidentally shown my wife a couple of articles about older cats and what was highlighted (perhaps unfairly) was the legend of the Iroquois.. whether its true or not, that particular brand was vetoed out of hand.

Having said that - she loves with a passion the Sailing Kittiwake channel and adores the HT, having had one pull up next to us in Bembridge last week there were lots of whispers from the girls - "Its like the one on Kittiwhake"

It appears that my choices are thus: HT or Summer Twins - ideally twin diesels, a Prout Quest/Event (pricier) or a Catalac 9m - I started with the idea of the Catalac but am gradually becoming very fond of the Twins. Need to look around a Prout further - the only ones I have seen close up to date are Snowgooses which are out of my immediate budget, has to be said that this is not our "keeper" boat - its very much a get me over for 4 years boat.

 

[alan_d]

Somewhat annoyed though that her doctor dismissed the scoplameine saying she'd never heard of it (despite my daughter showing it to her on her phone!)

Possibly because scopolamine is the name in the USA of the drug known this side of the Atlantic as hyoscine, a common constituent of travel sickness remedies, e.g. Kwells.