confused, do i need ICC

I also don't have any bits of paper that state I'm a geat sailor... what i do have is experience....and sea miles .... not only in my own boat but also delivery jobs both pleasure and commercial in fact I find it a bit scary that if you are 5 or 600 miles off shore and things start to go pair shaped or for that matter navigating through a busy port everthing will be fine because you can wave a bit of paper with a stamp on it.
 
Re: confused, do i need ICC ......

"You should have one to go foreign with your own boat though. "

Not so ... only some places require it .... and then its debatable if not inland etc. A UK flagged yacht is under UK regs and that says you do not need any paper qualification if not venturing inland waterways etc. Oncfe you venture past the harbour limit and into inland waterways etc. - you are then subject to that countries req'ts.

Take for example where I am in Latvia. I can sail my boat as I wish without any qualifications - UK flag. BUT as soon as I pass the road bridge and exit harbour limits - I am into inland waterways and require qualification ... ICC or the Latvian Boat licence.
There is a small mis-representation common in the ICC threads about it being only for UK boats and also implied that its the only one a Brit can take ... that is not actually totally true. You can take a local foriegn one in many countries if you wish to satisfy their regs and sail a UK flag boat ... as I do here, or you can take an ICC and sail a foreign boat where req'd qualification - as the authorities will accept your ICC as sufficient to do so ... it maybe "them bending their rules" a bit ... but happens.

Back to Charter Co's - for me I would ask for Fax confirmation and keep the paper with you ... it's definitely their problem then.
 
Re: confused, do i need ICC ......

Thank you, that is correct. And what people seem to forget is that while they might never be asked for documentation, they may be exposing themselves to high risk without the correct papers. Here is an example which is probably close to the actual situation...

A Spanish charter company has a number of yachts and has an insurance policy to cover certain risks. In particular, they have indemnity for their company so that in the event of a failing by them or their staff, they are insured. They might also have cover for third party indemnity in the case that their vessel is, by
their fault, to blame for an incident - for example, a gas cylinder explodes and it is no apparent fault of the user. They might also have cover for third party liability where a hirer causes damage BUT IT MIGHT BE that for this cover to be in place the hirer must be properly qualified. Most insurers would make such a stipulation, would they not, or would they be happy to pay out if the charter company hired its boat to a ten year old, or someone who had never sailed in their life before?

OK, so in order to hire boat to Brits you have a big, big problem. A high proportion of the experienced sailors are rather crusty and think that they are way, way beyond needing to prove competence to anyone so despite the existence of the ICC, many will not, cannot or are too frightened of rejection to obtain one. So to rent to Brits the local staff just shrug and say it's OK without.

Now,Tom, our Brit without any paper quals, anchors his yacht in a bay and (as anchors are likely to do) it drags while he is asleep or down at the bodega. The hire yacht falls back and causes, say, Euros 10,000 of damage to another Brit (Dick) just behind him. Dick is not best pleased and asks Tom to exchange details of insurers, etc. Neither Tom nor Dick read or speak Spanish and the girl in the charter office has a limited vocab. Dick contacts his insurers and faxes all the details including all Tom's paperwork over to them. Later the same day, Dick gets a phone call to say that there might be a problem with Tom's insurance... does

Tom have a Patron de Yate certificate? See the problem? Whatever you do, check the insurance angle.
 
[ QUOTE ]
have been sailing for nigh on 40 years, and I don't have a paper qualification to my name.

[/ QUOTE ] I wish it could stay like that. In the last few years I've had to add Dinghy Level II, and VHF operator's "bits of paper". Neither taught me anything new, but in both cases I'd have been stopped from doing something without them.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
have been sailing for nigh on 40 years, and I don't have a paper qualification to my name.

[/ QUOTE ] I wish it could stay like that. In the last few years I've had to add Dinghy Level II, and VHF operator's "bits of paper". Neither taught me anything new, but in both cases I'd have been stopped from doing something without them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point taken, but the VHF licence does not give any indication whatsoever, as to how good a sailor you are. So, I would not count that as within the scope of what I was talking about.

Setting aside matters of chartering in foriegn waters.......I hope that we (Brit Sailors) fight tooth and nail to stop this landslide towards licencing, which I fear is on the cards. Also, I don't feel that I have any need or desire to "tested" nor any fear of failing such a test, cos it aint gonna happen. Also, I feel that the freedom of the high seas, are everyones right. and I do not happily give credence to the idea that some meddling beaurocrats should have any power to interfere with that. As I said in my first post on this subject, and as I think others agree, it is really very scary, that anyone with a little over 5k and 14 weeks to spare, are then able to call themselves Yachmaster!.....get real! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
I agree with Smiffy .... read his original post correctly ...

I too abhore the approaching days of having to licence .... OK - so I am taking the Latvian Boat Drivers ... but that's because I want to cont. to sail the river at back of my house.

I also agree with Smiffy that a piece of paper does not show experience - it actually shows ability to pass a test.
There are plenty out there with all the Qualifications under the sun ... but still total prats when given the tiller. It's impossible to actually create a licence examination that really gets to the heart of the matter etc.

Thank you Lemain ... but I was not looking to fuel the Insurance angle on this foreign Charter bit ... as I tend to think Insurance is used as a lever by many to put a point. I would hope that the charter co. is saying his qualifications as he has are good enough ... have covered their and his rear-end insurance wise ... pretty daft if they haven't.
 
Re: I agree with Smiffy .... read his original post correctly ...

It's not the charter co. that would lose. It's the hirer!
 
Re: I agree with Smiffy .... read his original post correctly ...

[ QUOTE ]
It's not the charter co. that would lose. It's the hirer!

[/ QUOTE ]

But that's why I would insist on a written confirmation from charter co. to try and prevent such liability ... not that I want to have an incident !!!
 
Re: I agree with Smiffy .... read his original post correctly ...

Agreed, he needs to get a proper answer not rely on peoples' past experience when they did not have any sort of incident. Quite a lot of incidents happen every year - loads in Spanish waters - which involve authorities and/or insurers. Spain is not a cowboy country - maybe it used to be, don't know, but it isn't today.
 
[ QUOTE ]
ambiguities, which are quite common in Roman law systems

[/ QUOTE ]
The only Roman law system I'm aware of was in errrr... Rome. But I believe they adopted Italian law (a Napoleonic-style civil code system) some time ago.

I guess Scotland is about as close as you get to the Roman system nowadays - they're still known to mumble in Latin sometimes!
 
Re: confused, do i need ICC ......

it's not often I diagree with you but...............

[ QUOTE ]
Dick gets a phone call to say that there might be a problem with Tom's insurance...

[/ QUOTE ]

Tom's insurance is the charter companies not his, as you infer earlier in your post. In this they are no different from most individuals who insure their own boat and have responsibility to the insurers that anyone using the boat is 'competent'.

There is a clear acceptance of Tom's capabilities by the charter company when they give him the keys - as someone has already highlighted there may be an issue with any falsehoods in Tom's submission to them but let's put that to one side. It is therefore the Charter Companies 'problem'.

I certainly don't disagree with many of your observations though - whilst opinions here may be useful they are no substitute for written confirmation from interested parties!

Re reading your's again (5th time) I am not sure I am being anything but pedantic and agreeing.........my apologies.
 
Sorry, you're quite right. Legal systems based on the Napoleonic code. Prescriptive systems, in which every activity is covered a provision of the law.

You should have seen the difficulties which windsurfers created! Were they canoes? Or sailboats? The only certainty was that in the early years of their commercial use they were usually defined as 'the other', which led either to a fine, or a bribe, since the rules for each were different. A great source of personal income for some officials.

On the need for certificates, it's ironic that the two countries with the most difficult saliling conditions in the world (UK and France) have no requirement for yachting certificates for seagoers. I suppose that's because you don't survive if you don't take care, which is as good a filter of ability as any.
 
I am fairly positive that the RYA issues the ICC free of charge to members based on a statement of experience so give them a call and get a definite answer.I remember when these first came in that a flag officer of a recognised sailing club was able to scribble his name on the application form and this was deemed sufficient.
 
[ QUOTE ]
On the need for certificates, it's ironic that the two countries with the most difficult saliling conditions in the world (UK and France) have no requirement for yachting certificates for seagoers. I suppose that's because you don't survive if you don't take care, which is as good a filter of ability as any.

[/ QUOTE ]

You got that right!...............well, almost. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
I am fairly positive that the RYA issues the ICC free of charge to members based on a statement of experience so give them a call and get a definite answer.I remember when these first came in that a flag officer of a recognised sailing club was able to scribble his name on the application form and this was deemed sufficient.

[/ QUOTE ]

Membership of RYA! Flag Officers! Yacht Clubs! Eeeek! I don't have any truck with the likes of them. Thank you! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
I am fairly positive that the RYA issues the ICC free of charge to members based on a statement of experience so give them a call and get a definite answer.I remember when these first came in that a flag officer of a recognised sailing club was able to scribble his name on the application form and this was deemed sufficient.

[/ QUOTE ]

once upon a time the HOCC was capable of being issued in this vein - and the Dutch (amongst others I believe) suggested that it wasn't within the spirit of the regulations signed up to.

The RYA tightened up and the ICC was born.

It can be taken as a stand alone 'qualification' or, as you say, if you hold an existing RYA qualification that is sufficent the RYA will issue the ICC itself FOC to members.

I believe PBL2, DS practical, CS and above suffice.
 
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