Conflicting advice from sailmakers - help

Zippysigma

Zippysigma

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Need a new furling genoa for cruising, but often need to reef right down as my lifting keel makes the oceanis a little tender and needs early reefing, but I will sail in 25kts.

One local SM said to only use high modulus Dacron as laminate will delaminate when rolled tightly around the forestay in high winds and they never fit luff foam. They reckoned that Dacron would last at least 5 seasons with no loss of shape. Another said that laminate is fine and they would always recommend luff foam.

Also, is high modulus Dacron the same as higher weight? eg. 5.9oz HM compared to 7.4oz?

Errr....... any suggestions?
 
I used a tri-radial sandwich (Kemp Sails) on a roller reefing system and did not have any problems over a couple of seasons ..... I did use a sail cover as well, as I was concerned about the affect of U.V. When reefed it seemed to hold its shape better than the older dacron sail but I wish I had had a foam luff fitted.
Sorry, can't really comment on long term affects of rolling a sandwich construction sail as I have sold the boat!

I would guess (and only guessing) that high modulus means stronger and not necessarily heavier weight cloth.

Alan.
 
Not an expert but personally I would go for Dacron for a cruising sail unless there has been some enormous breakthrough in laminate technology that I don't know about.
 
Is the local SM a racing sail maker or does he do mainly cruising sails. If he does a lot of racing stuff he may have high-tech and cutting-edge tendencies.
 
I had Sobstad laminates (roller genoa and main) on my previous boat and they were still in good condition when I sold it last year after 8 seasons use. Always kept their shape.
The only problem was mildew between the laminates caused bad discolouration and it couldn't be cleaned out. No foam luff was fitted. Current boat came with woven (maybe Dacron) genoa and has a foam luff. All ok so far
 
Just having the same conversation this afternnon with my local sail maker !

He was recommending cruising laminate both for roller headsail and crusing main - not actually decided yet - but tending that way.

His take on it was the stretch was less, they should last about the same length of time and a portion of the extra material cost can be offset as the sails are easier to make

Below is from Bainbridges site http://www.sailcloth.com/answer6.html

Wrong! One of the fastest growing markets for us is cruising laminates. These are based on our race products so are just as strong, but have a light woven fabric bonded to both sides to give them the durability of a woven. We have made over 250,000 meters of this cloth and firmly believe it is the best cruising cloth available today. Unfortunately many people still only associate laminates with high-end race sails with limited durability.
 
Dacron last 5 season with no loss of shape? /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Cruising laminates are the business. Pentex with a taffeta scrim on both sides is what you need. A rope padded luff is a must if you want a sail that sets when reefed.

If you want a bit of cloth that will remain a baggy triangle for 30 years buy Dacron.
 
Buy a trisail and storm jib, even the wrap aorund the genny ones are worthwhile.
dont try to make a genoa work as a working, 3 or tri, there is no such thing in any material.
or, just roll it up n heave to , or in sight of land, motor.
 
Have you spoken to Dolphin? found Mathew to be very helpful in discussions....By the way, Hyde suggested that laminate sails were only warranted for 12months agains Dacron @ 5years!....had an impact on purchasing decision!
 
I had advice from several sailmakers, the consensus seemed to be that laminate will hold its shape better, but that it may fail quite rapidly after about 5 years, whereas Dacron will lose shape earlier but only gradually, and is not subject to sudden failure.
They also mentioned the mildew problem, stressed the importance of not rolling sails away wet if you have laminate, not always easy to arrange.
In any case once a sail gets salty it will never dry completely until it is washed.
 
Yes I have always thought this was the problem. dacron will stand more abuse. I think there is no doubt that laminates hold their shape better until they do fail but if you roll them up wet it is inevitable that they will get mildew and delaminate. Perhaps still a performance sail rather than a cruising sail? As I said before though I am not an expert and have never had a laminate sail, it's just an opinion.
I think the cut of a Dacron sail is also worth considering. A tri radial cut is more expensive than a horizontal cut one (not sure if my terminology is right but you will know what I mean) and perhaps for a good cruising sail it is worth spending the extra on the cut rather than material. There is no argument that it will then hold its shape better over time....
 
[ QUOTE ]

A tri radial cut is more expensive than a horizontal cut one (not sure if my terminology is right but you will know what I mean) and perhaps for a good cruising sail it is worth spending the extra on the cut rather than material. There is no argument that it will then hold its shape better over time....

[/ QUOTE ] I know people with Bi and tri-radial cuts for furlers and have heard good reports.
 
Just been down the same route, confusing inst it? But at least talking with a local sailmaker you do get choice and advice.

Initialy I was convinced I needed Pentex laminate, but after discussing my needs with an experienced sailmaker, I have now settled for a good quality dacron sail made in Dimension Polyant MT sq. Take a look at the web site, scroll down 'till you get to 'Square':

Dimension Polyant

I am having a 140% genny bi-radial cut with a foam luff and a cross cut main. The main is fully battened so I understand lasts longer than a short battened sail otherwise I would have had that Bi-radial too.

I am not having a UV strip as this can hinder the shape of a rolled sail, instead I am having a sail sock.

I understand that a sail made with a foam luf is cut fuller, so assisting light air sailing. The sail is engineered to benifit from the foam, rather than the foam being added later to solve a problem.
 
I went down the same path last winter & opted for a fully battened cross cut main & a triradial genny in a low aspect HMD challenge cloth.I had a foam luff & sacrificial luff.The advice I had was that for my cruising it was not worth the extra money for the laminate.The triradial is a great shape & I opted for a 135%(it came out as 132%) as the 150% genny I had was in my opinion too big for general use.I can carry the smaller sail much longer without reefing.
 
dont try to make a one fits all guys, it wont, a genny is a genny, furling on the foresay is that, furling, not reefing.
Fit an inner fore if you need it.. have a stay or trisail on board.

All this talk of triradial, cross cut, interlaced, interbred, gt turbo nutter bastardo systems just means YOU pay more for a gizmo....

if you are racing the majority of the time, then I suppose it might be conidered ok for some....

for the rest, just buy a SAIL, form a respected sail loft, for your design of boat... thats it.
 
Have you seen how old and knackered the original supplied sails can look on a production AWB? Of course you have. Those are generic sails. Putting a few rolls into a genoa IS reefing it. But I do take your point, if you want a proper storm sail, then there is only one way of doing it.

After a few seasons or a lifetime with a boat one has an idea of what is needed in the way of a sail. My original genoa is radial cut dacron. So I'm not going to buy below that am I?

Wanting to get the best value for money a discussion with a sailmaker can come up with the best solution. A trade off in performance against cost, maximising ones budget. That can include some nice extras.

For instance, trading up to the Polyant MT I speak of is costing about £250 extra per sail, good value I think.
 
Love the Flloyd quote btw ! /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

I have to agree to a point, the awb sails are generally dogsdollop....

but, that is, to be fair to the retailers, no issues, nobody sails.... well, the VAST majority just admire the boat and go down the odd weekend to sip G&T's
so, its NOT the makers or sail suppliers.


I must disagree Sir, putting a "few rolls into a genoa IS reefing it", nope it's not, it is furling it. there ARE sails out there than can be both furled AND perform a reasonable imitation of reefed. but roller FURLING it is.

People in general are like lemmings lol... the average AWB owner is a case in point having been TOLD and INSTRUCTED at the boatshow the benefits of one size fits all, for the solent.....

What IS all this PERFORMANCE thingy ? does not compute for me..... ???

Surely, the only purpose of sails is to make a boat go... ? if they do the job, they are good, if you try to make a 140 genoa a storm gib you are at least fooling youself, at worst needing a frontal lobotomy. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

AND, I have always said, I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy......

as for NOT buying BELOW a certain spec, no, I cannot agree... a lifetime of sailing ?? I think thats what you said... it would be a very uncomfortable or short lifetime with just a genoa.

I repeat, dont make a one size fits all unless you DO sail the distant reaches of the ubiquetous solent... have a choice, a storm rig is not a luxury, its a necessity... for the price of hte latest rayrippoff plotter (With daylight viewable high contrast, turbo megga nutter bastardoZoooooomph screen), one can have, say, a trisail track, a trisail, god forbid, a storm jib AND a removable inner forestay. add to that a stays'l.. why on earfth would one WANT to make a genny do a crappo imitation of a jib, let alone a storm jib.

the answer, me thinks is glaring, cos most are not taught the rudiments of sailing, only how to use the strings on a bendytoySunoddityvaria..... they rush (like the proverbial lemmings) to buy and fit the latest E series as opposed to C series as opposed to a windex and charts and a hand bearing compass.

In the nicest way I mean this.. but give me a break.. !! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

This is the type of sailing mentality that promotes widgets and gizmos, you will be trying to save "weight aloft" next.

Not meant in a confrontational way Sir, the written word is not face to face, would love to have a beer and discuss.

Joe
 
I agree with very large amounts of your post. Not all though....

I have sailed with boat owners who regard leaving the cockpit when the sails are up as something akin to crossing a motorway on a skateboard. The idea of replacing their one size fits all roller blind at the front of the boat with a sail actually meant for the wind strength is tantamount to suggesting taking a stroll through a bear infested wood covered in honey.

Performance is good though...!
Sailing fast is more fun than sailing slow....
 
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