Compulsory Training ?

[kcrane]

That IS precisely the point. Other than EU inspired regulations on the sale of new boats (CE Mark) there are no general regulations on small pleasure boats for private use that I am aware of. There are specific local regulations related to certain waterways, mainly inland and there are regulations governing the use of VHF - and thats about it.

How would you feel about compulsory insurance? I don't like the idea there are people who could cause expensive damage to other people's boats with no means to recompense them. Having said that, I'm struggling to come up with a way to have insurance compulsory whilst at the same time keeping the bureaucrats at bay.

My line of thought goes:

Good idea for everyone to be insured, therefore make insurance compulsory.

Question: How do you know if insurance is in place; who checks?
Answer: No-one does any positive vetting. Just have big fines & possible confiscation if you have an incident and you don't have insurance. Tell marinas they have to check insurance is in place, some do this already.

Question: If there is an incident what happens? Honest person would admit responsibility and pay up whether insured or not, though having insurance makes sure they can afford it. Uninsured scoundrel scarpers sharpish (lovely alliteration) making more effort to be undetected than before as now faces large fine.
Answer: Boats need to be identifiable, easily done with some kind of registration number.

Question: Who manages the registrations?
Answer: Argh, no easy answer. This brings in officialdom, registration will provide a register and a register is a sure fire way to introduce charges, just to cover costs you understand. We'd clearly need a Head of the Register of Vessels, who will need an office, and a PA, and sub-ordinates, and some consultants to recommend how to implement the new online IT system underpinning the register...

And finally... my last boat suffered twice at the hands of other boat owners.

The first was a small old heavy sailing dinghy, manned by 3 or 4 youths who attempted to sail down the fairway in blustery conditions, being shouted at by others as they careered from side to side, boom swinging wildly, until they scrapped down the side of my boat, shouted "Sorry mate, doesn't look too bad" and sailed away. One case of a small boat causing damage.

The second time was in Jersey when the owner of a Dutch boat tried to turn around in the fairway and thumped the side of my boat with his anchor. He didn't need qualifications (under 15m in Holland is OK?). He did have insurance, even had a copy of the schedule to hand. One case of someone who didn't need a licence, but still had insurance.

Don't think there is a conclusion to draw, I'd typed the stories by the time I realised that, so I posted it anyway

 

[Tranona]

Not sure that uninsured losses is a big problem. If it was the courts would be full of claims. Equally, not sure that the number of uninsured boats is large. Third party insurance is very cheap (because the risks insured are so low) and unrelated to the owner's skill, age etc. So there is not the "incentive" to go uninsured that there is with, say cars and bikes.

You have to keep these things in perspective, the fact that third party insurance is low cost and all risks insurance is almost directly related to the value of the asset at risk, suggests damage to the insured's own property is where the risk lies.

 

[neale]

NB. If anyone knows a thing or two about sorting out throttle leavers on a Bayliner Ciera feel free to let me know!!

I do know a little about this if you boat has the OMC cobra drive. The problem can be one of many things but is probably an incorrectly adjusted shift cable. This is a PITA to get adjusted correctly but once done it makes shifting very easy. Other possibilities are the shift interrupt isn't working properly. This operates from micro switches and momentarily stalls the engine just enough to help engage or disengage gears. If it isn't working because one of the micro switches has failed or because of incorrect adjustment, it can stop the gears engaging or disengaging. Finally, you need to check the idle RPM. If it's too high it will also cause shifting problems.

 

[andyo83]

Unfortunately not, its the alpha stern drive.

 

[jhr]

Alpha stern drive has the micro switch arrangement, so don't discount it as a possibility. Idle speed is also a strong contender and I have had this problem in the past.

 

[MapisM]

Unfortunately not, its the alpha stern drive.

Alphas are well known for having a critical shift cable regulation.
You might find this webpage of some interest.

 

[andyo83]

Thanks guys. much obliged.

 

[kcrane]

Not sure that uninsured losses is a big problem. If it was the courts would be full of claims. Equally, not sure that the number of uninsured boats is large.

Can see that it follows that if insurance is cheap the number of successful claims will be low.

Just testing the logic, does it follow that uninsured losses aren't a problem because the courts are not full?

Begs the question of course, problem to whom? Assuming the answer is the boat owning fraternity it could be an issue and yet the courts would not be full.

The number of boats of a value where the cost of damage would be enough to trigger an claim can't be that high I wouldn't think. Then you take the proportion of those own such a boat who have a reason to make a claim against someone and they also know who that someone is, a small percentage of an already relatively small number. Now take the proportion of those who have a claim and they know who to claim against who would start court proceedings and reduce that even further for the proportion that get to court. A handful of claims arriving at court could indicate an issue for the number of boat owners that there are.

Having said that, if it was an issue, wouldn't the cross section of boaters on this Forum have raised it sufficiently that we knew of it? I don't recall it being flagged. In fact, there have been a few times when I recall people saying their boat has been damaged and that the purpetrator was paying for repairs, so supporting your view.

 

[timbartlett]

But trust me, the unlimited license exam is not trivial at all, and it's not a matter of passing a multiple choice questionnaire, as Tim said.
I've seen a 767 captain failing this exam because he couldn't properly explain the logic of great circle routing, go figure.

If a 767 captain can't explain Great Circle routeing, then I am inclined to wonder what that tells us about the navigation content of commercial aviation qualifications. After all, it's not exactly rocket science!

Going back to the original point, though, it is a pretty clear indicator of why compulsory training and certification is a bad idea.
After all, how many motor boats are physically capable of making passages in which Great Circle sailing makes any perceptible difference -- very few, I suspect. Definitely not within the Med! And if someone chooses to go the rhumb line route rather than a great circle, what harm does it do to anyone other than himself?

So the inclusion of the Great Circle question is typical of one type of Government test: it is completely irrelevant, and serves no purpose other than to fail good candidates.
I must admit that I was thinking of the other type of government test, in which the questions are so easy and the pass mark so low that so long as you can put a tick in each box, it is difficult to fail, and it therefore serves no useful purpose other than as window dressing.

 

[kcrane]

I can see people new to boating thinking the car-like steering wheel implies simple to drive.

I hadn't made the close connection between boats and planes. The two ends of the trip can be pretty tricky, but the bit in the middle tends to be straight lines and not difficult unless the weather makes it interesting.

Lots of parallels now I think: big bills, safety, keeping passengers happy, big bills, setting off with enough fuel, big bills

 

[Searush]

I can see people new to boating thinking the car-like steering wheel implies simple to drive.

I hadn't made the close connection between boats and planes. The two ends of the trip can be pretty tricky, but the bit in the middle tends to be straight lines and not difficult unless the weather makes it interesting.

Lots of parallels now I think: big bills, safety, keeping passengers happy, big bills, setting off with enough fuel, big bills

You don't bother much about channels, rocks, overfalls & islands then?

I can understand that, at planing speeds, tides will only add a few gallons of fuel burned to your costs & can be largely ignored, but land & sandbanks will spoil your day in a big way if you insist on straight lines.

 

[strakeryrius]

Compulsory training is unlikely to improve the level of competence of the average boater if my experience of training is anything to go by. Even though they are run by RYA accredited schools the actual levels of achievement attained by students who "pass" is incredibly spotty.

On my VHF Radio course the tutor marked the paper of the first student to finish the final test paper aloud in the classroom while rest of us were still completing our papers. It was obviously his intention that no-one would fail his course.

On my Day Skipper practical course there were 2 other students - neither of them had read the colregs, and when tested verbally neither knew anything about lights and shapes, sound signals, navigation, tides or virtually anything else or so it seemed. Yet they still received their Day Skipper certificate at the end of the course, because they had simply "completed" the course - by any real standards they should both have failed. It totally devalued the status of the RYA courses in my eyes and I haven't bothered to do any more since.

 

[Kawasaki]

In defence of kcrane Rushie
I know we have to zig an zag an all that there in the Strait
If you leg off to Irleand from Caernarfon bar or to Douglas from Puffin say
It's as kcrane says
Straight lines till yer get there
In fact all straight from Puffin ter IOM @ Douglas innit!

 

[Searush]

In defence of kcrane Rushie
I know we have to zig an zag an all that there in the Strait
If you leg off to Irleand from Caernarfon bar or to Douglas from Puffin say
It's as kcrane says
Straight lines till yer get there
In fact all straight from Puffin ter IOM @ Douglas innit!

Yeah, but I have to have a little pop - everyone else likes to correct me don't they? Straight lines to Ireland can take you over the Kish, and going to Mochras you have to cross Paddy's causeway, lots of other examples I'm sure.

 

[DIW]

I think tinticker and sarabande raise valid points in that some form of Certificate of Competence be requested by the Marina Operator and held on file with the Certificate of Insurance that the majority of Marinas request when renewing or taking up your lease. This wouldn’t resolve the boat handling mishaps which we all experience from time to time but would at least indicate that the holder had undertaken some basic training and a reasonable level of boat handling skills had been achieved.
Surely this would be reassuring to other owners in the Marina.

 

[Searush]

I think tinticker and sarabande raise valid points in that some form of Certificate of Competence be requested by the Marina Operator and held on file with the Certificate of Insurance that the majority of Marinas request when renewing or taking up your lease. This wouldn’t resolve the boat handling mishaps which we all experience from time to time but would at least indicate that the holder had undertaken some basic training and a reasonable level of boat handling skills had been achieved.
Surely this would be reassuring to other owners in the Marina.

But I don't go in marinas. And many in marinas don't ever come out . . .

 

[Kawasaki]

It totally devalued the status of the RYA courses in my eyes and I haven't bothered to do any more since.

Which is a shame
The RYA, take it or leave it is a recognised Body throught most of the World
Taint perfect.
More to do with Yachts than mobos as we all know
I was discussing the 'variation' of instruction tother day with a very experienced Boat Person/Instructor
We were nattering about how the RYA could change stuff and improve stuff ref The Powerbaot scheme and the Motorcruiser scheme an all that.
Just in conversation like, nowt serious.

What I/ We (me mate) have noticed is the quality of instruction and how it varies.

Summat that is going to happen in area of teaching/instruction etc etc
I rember me maths teacher in school, what a W&nker!
Then me english tuecher was spoot on as yer can tel, like!

Sounds like you came across some Instructors that were a bit lacking in some departements, which is a shame.

As to 'Compulsory'
Nah, dunna like it

Here's a thing today
Down at the slipway in Menai Bridge
Just having a fag an waiting fer me mate to turn up
With His daughter an entourage, kids an all etc
Sticken His / Her 20 footer in for the first time

Just to 'observe'!
Anyway they launched ok
Mate has lots of experience, over 30 years
Daughter done PB2 with Me
So I sat an watched
They had an 'Expert' with them
So I sat an watched
To cut it short the prop got twatted!
So I sat an watched
OK, me mate is getting old like me!
But the whole job got knackered by the 'Expert'!

Earlier, whilst waiting fer me mate,
A 'Crew' turned up with a Shetland
Afraid of reversing down the slip, I volunteered to do so
Then the shennanekins started
Two peeps up to the waist in water whilst trying to launch!
No need on this particular slip!

Now, nobody was hurt and apart from a few bob to mend a prop all was ok

I Do Not Want Compulsory stuff.
I Do Want Compulsory insurance.

Todays observations
OK, peeps made a cock up of some stuff
Done it all me self in the past, it's a learning curve.

Training does help thats for sure
The peeps that couldn,t reverse?
I asked why doesn't one of you get in the boat an come back whilst you leg off with the trailer?

'None of them know how to drive the boat' He said

I still don't want training to be compulsory.
These peeps were relatively newbs obviously
Full of enthusiasm
Ready for a nice day out on the water, which is great
Didn't know about training an stuff
Had to produce Insurance details at the slip, which they had.

I mentioned I might know someone who could help ref boat handling and training etc

The reaction was very positive

But I think these peeps enthusiasm , which was marvelous, might have been stilfled if they had to have had Compulsory' thrown at them.

OK, you can go climb a mountain and do whatever
At the Mo take to sea the same
Go down a pot hole if yer want

Kite surfing looks very dangerous ter me
Needs to be controlled

Education not Legislation
Thats' the way Forward
But Hey
That's the Rub!

 

[Tranona]

I think tinticker and sarabande raise valid points in that some form of Certificate of Competence be requested by the Marina Operator and held on file with the Certificate of Insurance that the majority of Marinas request when renewing or taking up your lease. This wouldn’t resolve the boat handling mishaps which we all experience from time to time but would at least indicate that the holder had undertaken some basic training and a reasonable level of boat handling skills had been achieved.
Surely this would be reassuring to other owners in the Marina.

Why do you think marinas should be responsible for this? They are commecial bodies that provide parking for boats. They require their customers to have insurance to avoid any liability themselves for damage caused by customers.

It is really stretching the imagination to think that they should also be responsible for checking the competence of their customers. The only responsibility for that is the customer himself as he alone has the responsibility for damage he inflicts on others. By insisting that customers insure against such damage solves the problem.

Why do you think there are so few problems? Firstly because there are so few incidents of incompetence because people take responsibility themselves, and secondly because if there is damage to third parties there is a perfectly adequate mechanism for resolving the issue - that is insurance.

You can of course find examples when these mechanisms are less than perfect - but it is a challenge (as we have seen in this thread) to suggest a better alternative.

 

[MapisM]

If a 767 captain can't explain Great Circle routeing, then I am inclined to wonder what that tells us about the navigation content of commercial aviation qualifications.
...
So the inclusion of the Great Circle question is typical of one type of Government test: it is completely irrelevant, and serves no purpose other than to fail good candidates.

Yep, I have to agree 100% with the first of your statements above. But not with the second.

See, the license exam actually doesn't have a pre-defined list of questions. There is a rather extensive program, which includes some things whose relevance is questionable to say the least, like great circle routes or celestial navigation.
But the examiners, which are normally retired Navy officers, can ask whatever they feel appropriate.
Now, of course any Navy officer with decades of experience can make questions whose only purpose is to make a candidate fail.
But what actually happened in the exam session I'm talking about is that they asked to a long-haul commercial pilot (who introduced himself as such, to start with...) which type of charts are used for great circle routes.
And not only he replied along the lines of "the usual charts, just on larger scale", but he afterwards justified his reply explaining that the computers take care of all that, anyway.
Actually, also the rest of the exam was not brilliant at all, but 'fiuaskme it wouldn't have been such a bad decision to deny the license to that gentleman for that reply alone, no matter how relevant the topic was for practical pleasure boating.
It's also a matter of attitude after all, innit?

 

[Kawasaki]

Yeah, but I have to have a little pop - everyone else likes to correct me don't they?

Chwara Teg!